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Thread: OC vs CC in North Carolina - situational question

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    Question OC vs CC in North Carolina - situational question

    I am getting my CCW in Greensboro NC in a few months (waiting on my DD214 which is required). I like to carry my Glock 17 in a Sticky Holster in my pocket when around the house and property. But the handle sticks out of my pants, a Glock 17 is pretty big even for cargo shorts. Would the handle showing be enough from a practical standpoint to be OC or is that CCW? I know the text of the NC law - I mean from a "practical" standpoint.
    Sorry, I just realized it's in the wrong forum and I don't know how to delete.
    Last edited by bulldawg1964; 08-02-2014 at 12:09 PM. Reason: wrong forum

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I know of no requirement for a DD214 to obtain a CHP. I had one over ten years ago and was not even asked for one. The form did ask about military service. What is required currently is documentation from the state and federal/military health providers of a clean bill of mental health. Until the county receives this your application will not be forwarded to Raleigh.

    Being in the military is not a requirement in NC to get a CHP.

    As to the handle of your G17. if your gun is covered by clothing and not visible it is not OC. There must be no intent to hide your gun. What is normally covered by the holster is OK, so IWB is OC as long as the remaining gun is clearly visible. Don't even try hiding all but a small portion of the grip, you will likely take a ride.

    If you are going to play games with the law, you should read US V Black. Being charged with conceal carry does not matter if you tried winging it, or completely conceal. If you wing the officer has RAS to stop you, and search. If the gun is properly concealed refer to US V Black.

    I do not condone intentionally breaking the law, nor does this site. Make your decisions wisely.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-02-2014 at 12:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I know of no requirement for a DD214 to obtain a CHP. I had one over ten years ago and was not even asked for one. The form did ask about military service. What is required currently is documentation from the state and federal/military health providers of a clean bill of mental health. Until the county receives this your application will not be forwarded to Raleigh.

    ... snip
    In Guilford County, the sheriff requires a copy of your DD214 to prove that you were honorably discharged for a CCW. Funny thing is, they take your word for it to get a pistol permit. Go figure.
    Thanks for the calification about IWB withthe rest showing.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldawg1964 View Post
    In Guilford County, the sheriff requires a copy of your DD214 to prove that you were honorably discharged for a CCW. Funny thing is, they take your word for it to get a pistol permit. Go figure.
    Thanks for the calification about IWB withthe rest showing.
    That is done with the fingerprint and background check, there is no requirement for it in the process. Could you please provide some documentation to this requirement by the sheriff. The sheriff is limited to what he can demand, only request. It would be impossible for a non military person to provide a DD214 so I have my doubts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is done with the fingerprint and background check, there is no requirement for it in the process. Could you please provide some documentation to this requirement by the sheriff. The sheriff is limited to what he can demand, only request. It would be impossible for a non military person to provide a DD214 so I have my doubts.
    Oh, it's just for folks who disclose that they were in the military. Not the non military types. Here ya go!

    http://www.guilfordcountysheriff.com...=77&Itemid=291

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldawg1964 View Post
    Oh, it's just for folks who disclose that they were in the military. Not the non military types. Here ya go!

    http://www.guilfordcountysheriff.com...=77&Itemid=291
    I looked it up and yea the sheriff is winging it. He can only demand what the statutes tell him to. A drivers license is sufficient outside of the mental health records and the fingerprint and background check. Any dishonorable discharge will come up on a background check. The sheriff is clearly trying to discourage applications.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    WW the statutes states the sheriffs mandate the dd 214 to validate the individual was 'honorably' discharged from military service.
    14-415.12
    (b)(7) Is or has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under conditions other than honorable

    ipse
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    WW the statutes states the sheriffs mandate the dd 214 to validate the individual was 'honorably' discharged from military service.
    14-415.12
    (b)(7) Is or has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under conditions other than honorable

    ipse
    Sorry but that does not mandate a DD214, just a that the person has been not been discharged not honorably. Harnett County does not require a DD214. The paperwork required is spelled out in the statute. I will dig but I have not seen any reference to providing a DD214, that will come out in the background check.

    It is also the same criteria on form 4473, yet there is no demand for a DD214. The state form itself does not ask for a DD214, it has questions similar to 4473. There was a legal requirement for mental health release forms, and this is usually the holdup most times on permits. The Hairnet county actually procures the documents after the proper privacy release forms are filled and turned over to the sheriffs office. A DD214 would be easy to forge, as well as mental health documents, that is why they do their own investigation.

    Unless the document is required by law, CHP is a shall issue and the sheriff must follow the law.

    Paperwork required in most counties is downloadable on their website, or can be collected at the sheriffs office. I have seen no DD214 form application online. DD214 is issued at time military service ends, not everybody keeps them on hand. The sheriffs dept can ask for a ID to determine identity. DD214 without a photograph cannot ID a person, unless they give blood to match the blood type on DD214. And then in my case there are a lot of people with A+ blood.

    http://www.usacarry.com/north_caroli...formation.html

    Required Documents:
    Application completed under oath on a form provided by the sheriff
    Full set of fingerprints administered by the sheriff
    An original certificate of completion of an approved safety course
    A release that authorized and requires disclosure to the sheriff of any records concerning the mental health of capacity of the appliant


    http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx

    C. Concealed Handgun Permit
    Certain residents of North Carolina may be eligible to obtain a permit which would allow
    them to carry a concealed handgun under certain conditions. N.C. Gen. Stat. 14-415.11. No
    other weapons may be carried concealed pursuant to such permit.
    North Carolina also allows out-of-state concealed handgun permittees to carry concealed
    handguns, pursuant to such permits, in North Carolina. N.C. Gen. Stat. 14-415.24(a). While
    carrying a handgun pursuant to such permit, qualified out-of-state permittees are held to the same
    standards as North Carolina permittees. Consequently, there are a number of areas where
    concealed handguns cannot be carried in North Carolina, regardless of the individual having a
    permit to carry a concealed weapon. Included on the N.C. Department of Justice website is a list
    of "Do's and Don'ts" for carrying a concealed handgun in North Carolina. In order to acquire a
    North Carolina permit, an individual must apply to the sheriffs office in the county in which
    he/she resides. As part of the application process, the applicant must accomplish the following:
    1. Complete an application, under oath, on a form provided by the sheriffs office;
    2. Pay a non-refundable fee of $80.00;
    3. Allow the sheriffs office to take two (2) full sets of fingerprints, which may cost
    up to $10.00;
    14 4. Provide an original certificate of completion of an approved handgun safety
    course; and
    5. Provide a release authorizing disclosure to the sheriff of any record concerning the
    applicant's mental health or capacity.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-02-2014 at 05:09 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    President Donald Trump

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    wayne county: If you have served in the military and been discharged, we will need a copy of you DD-214. http://www.waynegov.com/Page/391

    wake county: nothing stated on their web site

    durham county: o BRING IN ORIGINAL DD-214 (IF EVER IN MILITARY) http://dconc.gov/modules/showdocumen...cumentid=10011

    wilson county: nothing stated on their web site

    duplin county: nothing stated on their web site

    lincoln county: 6. If discharged from the military, a copy of discharge is REQUIRED when you come in for your in person appointment. http://www.lincolnsheriff.org/index....=242&Itemid=58

    so with six out of 100 counties randomly checked and running 50% required, you are on your own to check the other 94.

    WW why did you go to obscure sites for your info, when 14-415.12 outlines why a sheriff can deny a permit and (b)(7) specifically states if dishonorably discharged is grounds to refuse, therefore i am sure the sheriff wants to ensure the individual hasn't received a BD from the service.

    4473 has nothing to do with this discussion since the main thrust is CHP issuance.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-02-2014 at 07:24 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    The documents that a sheriff can ask for are in state law, and DD214 is not one of them. They cannot refuse a permit on shall issue unless the applicant has a disability to prevent them from having a permit. Not supplying a DD214 is not one of them. I am sure a few depts get away with it. But a judge by law would have to force the sheriff to approve the permit.

    It is just another reason that the permit scheme is so vile, bureaucrats abusing the system because people do not want to take them to court.

    North Carolina is a shall issue state, they must issue based on the state standards.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-02-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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    WW harnett county requires a dd form 214: https://hcso.permitium.com/ccw/appli...permittype=new

    it calls it out during the completion of their online application and when you check the square discharged you get the following pop up:

    Please bring in your DD214 with you for the appointment. If you were dishonorably discharged, you will be deni

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    WW harnett county requires a dd form 214: https://hcso.permitium.com/ccw/appli...permittype=new

    it calls it out during the completion of their online application and when you check the square discharged you get the following pop up:

    Please bring in your DD214 with you for the appointment. If you were dishonorably discharged, you will be deni

    ipse
    It is a very recent change then, as of last year they did not require it. The law is still the law, and this is a shall issue state that is based on the state statutes. I cannot find any demand for a DD214 in the statutes. This is much like some counties refusing to issue PPP for 18 to 20 year old applicants. If taken to court they will lose as the law is clear.

    All a person has to do to get a CHP is meet the state requirements.

    They are also asking for a convenience fee, emphasis on asking.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 08-02-2014 at 10:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldawg1964 View Post
    I am getting my CCW in Greensboro NC in a few months (waiting on my DD214 which is required). I like to carry my Glock 17 in a Sticky Holster in my pocket when around the house and property. But the handle sticks out of my pants, a Glock 17 is pretty big even for cargo shorts. Would the handle showing be enough from a practical standpoint to be OC or is that CCW? I know the text of the NC law - I mean from a "practical" standpoint.
    Sorry, I just realized it's in the wrong forum and I don't know how to delete.
    In my opinion, I wouldn't put a Glock 17,19,26 ect in my pocket. Why not just get a Serpa and keep it on your hip, save the small guns like the 380s for pocket use when you get your CCP.

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I know of no requirement for a DD214 to obtain a CHP. I had one over ten years ago and was not even asked for one. The form did ask about military service. What is required currently is documentation from the state and federal/military health providers of a clean bill of mental health. Until the county receives this your application will not be forwarded to Raleigh.

    Being in the military is not a requirement in NC to get a CHP.
    No, but if you were in the military, you must have an honorable discharge from the service. A DD-214 clearly states an individual's conditions of discharge from the service. I also had to provide a copy of mine (they did not keep it, but did make a copy).

    NC GS 14-415.12.

    (b) The sheriff shall deny a permit to an applicant who:

    (7) Is or has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under conditions other than honorable.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Back to the OP

    the general rule of thumb is, if you can see the handle you can tell it is a gun. then it is not concealed

    i know this because my BNL went through this a while back. he always carried in his back pocket when he was making a deposit. he would be seen by lots of LEO
    till one night his shirt fell over the handle. long story short judge said; if you could tell what he had it was OK.

    agreed with WTP, you really do need to get yourself a good holster. both OC and CC
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40sc View Post
    No, but if you were in the military, you must have an honorable discharge from the service. A DD-214 clearly states an individual's conditions of discharge from the service. I also had to provide a copy of mine (they did not keep it, but did make a copy).

    NC GS 14-415.12.

    (b) The sheriff shall deny a permit to an applicant who:

    (7) Is or has been discharged from the Armed Forces of the United States under conditions other than honorable.
    The same conditions for buying a firearm from a FFL, but that is not a requirement to submit a document. State law lays out what documents are required. As a shall issue state if the applicant meets state and federal standards the county must issue. Unless you can cite a law saying otherwise, the above is not.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post

    But it is his responsibility to show that you were discharged under less than honorable conditions. He can deny you for being a felon, but you don't have to prove you are not one.
    NO you don't and that has been proved in court. NC law is clear in the documents to be provided, status is determined by a background check.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The same conditions for buying a firearm from a FFL, but that is not a requirement to submit a document. State law lays out what documents are required. As a shall issue state if the applicant meets state and federal standards the county must issue. Unless you can cite a law saying otherwise, the above is not.
    State law dictates the requirements to obtain a CHP, and one of those is that IF a vet, they must have been discharged under honorable conditions.

    The DD-214 is just the documentation to support that the applicant was discharged under honorable conditions.

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    Regular Member RugarRev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldawg1964 View Post
    I am getting my CCW in Greensboro NC in a few months (waiting on my DD214 which is required)....
    Not sure if we are understanding the OP's statement. Here in Iowa, the "Iowa Application For Permit To Carry Weapons" http://www.dps.state.ia.us/asd/weapons/WP5.pdf, in the section heading "Training Documentation", the DD214 is an acceptable (in Iowa) form of training verification in lieu of the bought-and-paid-for "certified civilian training" one might recieve from other sources such as the NRA. Type of discharge must not be "Less Than Honorable"

    Perhaps this is also the avenue the OP is seeking to take. Just thinking outside the box...
    Last edited by RugarRev; 08-03-2014 at 06:50 PM. Reason: To include the "Less than honorable" tid-bit
    Be Safe...RR

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    Regular Member XD40sc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RugarRev View Post
    Not sure if we are understanding the OP's statement. Here in Iowa, the "Iowa Application For Permit To Carry Weapons" http://www.dps.state.ia.us/asd/weapons/WP5.pdf, in the section heading "Training Documentation", the DD214 is an acceptable (in Iowa) form of training verification in lieu of the bought-and-paid-for "certified civilian training" one might recieve from other sources such as the NRA. Type of discharge must not be "Less Than Honorable"

    Perhaps this is also the avenue the OP is seeking to take. Just thinking outside the box...
    Not the case in NC, it is solely to provide proof of honorable discharge from the service for vets. A state approved course is required as proof of training.

    A DD-214 can provide proof of firearm training, but the military does not provide training regarding state laws about carry or when deadly force is considered legal, which varies from state to state.
    Last edited by XD40sc; 08-03-2014 at 07:34 PM.

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    Regular Member RugarRev's Avatar
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    XD40sc...gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
    Be Safe...RR

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    I suspect the sheriff wanting a DD214 is to excuse himself from doing his own research...it is his responsibility to validate the truthfulness of an applicant's CHP form.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by American Patriot View Post
    I suspect the sheriff wanting a DD214 is to excuse himself from doing his own research...it is his responsibility to validate the truthfulness of an applicant's CHP form.
    it is also the sheriffs ball game...he holds the responsibility for total approval/rejection of the CHP and is, by statute, immune from any ramifications for his 'judgement' calls. therefore, if the citizen truly wishes a chp, whose main purpose is to facilitate the purchase of firearms, in lieu of a PPP (also issued by the sheriff) within the tarheel state, then the citizen will produce a dd form 214 as needed.

    if rejected, it is the citizen's responsibility to judicially pursue through the county court system.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 08-04-2014 at 06:26 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldawg1964 View Post
    I am getting my CCW in Greensboro NC in a few months (waiting on my DD214 which is required).
    When that DD214 shows up, before you go to the sheriff's office, take it to the Registrar of Deeds at your county court house and have it registered. That way, whenever you need a copy, you can get a notarized one (usually free).

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