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Thread: Virginia Beach Joint Use Library

  1. #1
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Virginia Beach Joint Use Library

    This is an initial heads up as I have to head to work. There is a Joint Use Library in Virginia Beach that is co-owned/funded by Tidewater Community College and the City of Virginia Beach. I have open-carried there twice in the past with not issues. Today while running errands with the wife before my shift I observed a "No Weapons Allowed - Subject to Search" sign posted. I will post pictures later (running late for work). I called the Joint Use Security Desk and got a recording and called the main campus security. The officer who answered couldn't tell me what authority the sign was posted under but did state that weapons are not allowed. He was going to come over and speak with me in person but after waiting about 10 minutes we had to continue with our errands. I will be contacting the security office for an address to send a letter to requesting the sign be taken down as I believe it violates the state "preemption" clause. I will also send a letter to the city library department providing the same info/request. I will have to search for the cite in the state code tonight after work but if someone knows it off the top of their head and can post a link here I would appreciate it.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The preemption statute? http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915 (I've got the thing bookmarked. Imagine that!)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  3. #3
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Thanks Skidmark!

    I am drafting a letter (to be sent via registered mail) requesting the signage be removed due to it being in conflict with the code of virginia. I have the mailing address for the Captain of TCC Campus Security, Virginia Beach City Library Department, the Virginia Beach City Attorney's Office, and the Office of the Commonwealth's Attorney.

    Anyone have any other suggestions for who I should also send a copy to?

  4. #4
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    spoke with assistant city attorney Rob Ingram and emailed him a copy of the photo of the sign. He is familar with the virginia code and will investigate and see if the building sign needs to be removed or if something in the exemptions to the school extend/apply to the building. I did remind him that the campus itself is public property and while restrictions can be placed on students and employees as terms of student conduct/terms of employment the general public is not restricted from carrying on the grounds/public areas. The library has signs declaring it open to the public and it is listed on the city government website under the library department. All good points and he is going to have to look further into it and will be letting Eva Poole, head of the Library department know that the challenge has been brought up and inform her of the determination of the city attorney's office. He will also let me know that they determine as they review the situation.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Thanks Skidmark!

    I am drafting a letter (to be sent via registered mail) requesting the signage be removed due to it being in conflict with the code of virginia. I have the mailing address for the Captain of TCC Campus Security, Virginia Beach City Library Department, the Virginia Beach City Attorney's Office, and the Office of the Commonwealth's Attorney.

    Anyone have any other suggestions for who I should also send a copy to?
    Hope you are addressing it to the head of the Va Beach Public Library, with cc to all those others. Don't forget VCDL.

    Keep the letter short & sweet - it violates preemption. Do not fall into the "my rigts are being violated" trap.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  6. #6
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Hope you are addressing it to the head of the Va Beach Public Library, with cc to all those others. Don't forget VCDL.

    Keep the letter short & sweet - it violates preemption. Do not fall into the "my rigts are being violated" trap.

    stay safe.

    Good advice. Thank you.

  7. #7
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Stage 2

    Spoke with the city attorney and he resent me an email he sent out last week, which includes an email sent to my wife by the interim library director but was misaddressed so she never got it. It is long so I will not cut and past but here is the cliff note version.

    From Ms Sarah Greene, interim director, Coordinator of Technology and Library Operations, TCC/City of Virginia Beach Joint-Use Library

    Tidewater Community College has a no weapons policy which you can read here http://www.tcc.edu/policies/1000/1101Weapons.pdf . The Joint Use Library is on the TCC Campus and is a TCC building and therefore is subject to this policy.

    1. Purpose
    This policy addresses the possession of weapons by students and employees on college property, and by any person in college buildings and at college-sponsored sporting, entertainment, and educational events. It is consistent with the Weapons Regulation adopted by the State Board for Community Colleges, the policy of the Virginia Community College System, and the laws and regulations of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
    ...
    2.1. General
    Possession or carrying of any weapon by any person, except a law-enforcement officer, is prohibited on college property in academic buildings, administrative office buildings, student centers, child care centers, dining facilities, and places of like kind where people congregate, or while attending any sporting, entertainment or educational events. Entry upon the aforementioned college property in violation of this prohibition is expressly forbidden.
    Any individual in violation of this prohibition shall be directed to remove the weapon immediately. Failure to comply may result in a student conduct referral, an employee disciplinary action, or arrest.

    The assistant city attorney, Rod Ingram added the following in the email he sent to me:

    I contacted Eva Poole, who is the Director of Virginia Beach Public Libraries. She forwarded me the email below from Sarah Green, a TCC employee who serves as the Interim Director of the Joint Use Library, in which Ms. Green responded to a concern from a citizen who shares your last name.
    ........
    The Joint Use Library is not a City owned or leased building but rather is a state-owned building. The sign that was the subject of your call and email to me this morning was posted by TCC. The City had no role in posting the sign, and the City has no role in TCC’s establishment or enforcement of TCC’s weapons policy.

    SO.......it looks like a pass of the buck and I need to contact the Commonwealth's Attorney to enforce state law in a state owned building....

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I strongly suggest you delete any thoughts you have about contacting the Commonwealth Attorney or thinking they might act in the direction you are hoping.

    A petition for declaratory judgement* is possibly the most effective/efficient way to proceed. VCDL may (or may not) be willing to sic one of their attorneys on that - but you should certainly ask them. They might decide to go that route if their phone call/harshly worded letter does not work.

    stay safe.

    * - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment You fear doing something you believe to be legal because you have reason to believe you will be arrested/prosecuted under an improper law/regulation/policy. The matter is adjudicated without you needing to defend against a criminal charge.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Regular Member wrearick's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice skidmark,
    I will have to do some research on a declaratory judgment as I do not know what that is and don't want to guess. I did forward a brief synopsis and the emails to VCDL leadership to get their opinion/suggestions/recommendations on how to proceed. While a member I have not invoked their name in this issue but also recognize they have a lot more experience in this so have sought their input.

    Hey look, there is a link that I can follow that tells me about declaratory judgments! You are awesome!
    Last edited by wrearick; 08-11-2014 at 05:11 PM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrearick View Post
    Thanks for the advice skidmark,
    You are awesome!
    *scrapes toe in dust* Aw, shucks. *blushes*

    stay safe.



    and if you believe that, see me about an ocean-front lot I have in Arizona that I'll let go for cheap.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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