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Thread: YMCA OC Interpretation

  1. #1
    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    YMCA OC Interpretation

    So for quite some time I've been questioning the gun buster sign at the Centennial YMCA (which is a City of Las Vegas Community Center, run by the YMCA, thereby making it a Public Building, no?) which says...no guns blah blah blah, THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS ARE FOR NEVADA PEACE OFFICERS AND CITY EMPLOYEES COVERED BY NRS 202-3673(4)(C).

    Here is the excerpt:

    3. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of:

    (a) A public building that is located on the property of a public school or a child care facility or the property of the Nevada System of Higher Education, unless the permittee has obtained written permission to carry a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subparagraph (3) of paragraph (a) of subsection 3 of NRS 202.265.

    (b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

    4. The provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection 3 do not prohibit:

    (a) A permittee who is a judge from carrying a concealed firearm in the courthouse or courtroom in which the judge presides or from authorizing a permittee to carry a concealed firearm while in the courtroom of the judge and while traveling to and from the courtroom of the judge.

    (b) A permittee who is a prosecuting attorney of an agency or political subdivision of the United States or of this State from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of a public building.

    (c) A permittee who is employed in the public building from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building.

    (d) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he or she is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.

    If I read this correctly it only covers CC not OC, correct.

    Has anyone had experience (good or bad) OCing at the YMCA? Or any other thoughts.

    Noah

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Yes, you are correct in that state laws protect your right to openly carry there.

    The local governments of The City of Las Vegas, the City of North Las Vegas, and Clark County are KNOWN violators of the state preemption laws and state CCW laws. They will illegally enforce whatever damn rule they like. Our state's preemption law against this has no penalty clause.

    If you are willing to be the test case, go for it. I expect you will be hassled and informally trespassed. If we are lucky, you will be cited and/or arrested so that we may start the court proceedings against them.

    Sorry.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-05-2014 at 08:12 PM.
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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    That's what I thought. Given my employment status I can't afford to be a test case, and that's not only financially. However a night in the slammer would be a nice vacation.

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Just didn't know if anyone else had tested those waters.

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Okay, I did it! Well that might be a bit misleading.

    I walked in to scan my card and pick up a youth class schedule (which they have sitting at the counter).

    That's what I did, walked in, scanned my card and grabbed the form. The kid at the desk & I exchanged pleasantries, then I walked out all while OCing. I'm pretty sure he noticed as he kinda took a double take at my hip area.

    I was inside the building for maybe 45sec, so this prob wasn't a good test.

    Baby steps.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    It's a fantastic test, do NOT belittle it!

    Those 45 seconds speak VOLUMES. That kid (anyone else who noticed) saw a man with a gun not do anything except conduct his brief business and leave. He might even start wondering about why he may not have seen something like that before, and wonder about whether or not there are things out there he should know about.

    He might tell his supervisors. Even if he does and they are shocked, they will research it. They might discover that an initial reaction to stop it would be illegal.

    Those were a very valuable 45 seconds.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by njkennelly View Post
    Okay, I did it! Well that might be a bit misleading.

    I walked in to scan my card and pick up a youth class schedule (which they have sitting at the counter).

    That's what I did, walked in, scanned my card and grabbed the form. The kid at the desk & I exchanged pleasantries, then I walked out all while OCing. I'm pretty sure he noticed as he kinda took a double take at my hip area.

    I was inside the building for maybe 45sec, so this prob wasn't a good test.

    Baby steps.
    I agree with MAC...it is always a great test, no matter the time you spent testing.

    I have tested Costco 3 times since the Erik Scott murder. My wife has a membership there, I don't, and she uses her own money for purchases. I have tried to convince her to drop her membership and explained why. She still insists on going there because she likes to send bulk items to our kids in the Philippines. Anyway, I got bored sitting in the car, and this was at the beginning of the Summer swelter. Since I was roasting inside the car, I decided to go in with her and test the waters. No employees said anything to me that time, or on the other two occasions I OC'd there.

    I tested the waters at Fashion Mall twice and have never been challenged on it; that's because of the poor observation skills of security there. On the first occasion, I passed by 2 security guards patrolling the mall, and by a SG standing next to the railing near the escalator I went up. He was looking down at the crowd below and never scanned around his position.

    I have tested the waters at Sante Fe casino 2 times. The first time, I passed by 2 security guards and, as at Fashion Mall, their observation skills were lacking. I tested Aliante casino twice. The first time I was at the West end of the casino near the Hotel and no security even came to that end of the casino during the hour I was there. The second time, I was in the middle of the casino and was approached by a suit, who politely told me that I couldn't open carry, but he didn't have a prob. if I concealed. I had to leave because I don't have a CCW. I still would have left if I did have a CCW, though.

    Aliante in the only place I have ever been asked to leave in all the places I have OC'd.

    So, keep testing the waters; even if it just for a minute, or so.

    One of the first places I carried was the public library on N.Buffalo. I passed by the SG and library employees a couple of times while I was there, and even went up to the counter to sign my wife and son up for cards. The staff behind the counter didn't say anything. I passed by the SG, who was stationed at the inside entrance into the library, on my way out of the library. I really don't know what it is about SG's inability to observe people and see a gun carried plainly in the open, but this one also didn't see my gun.

    One of the people on the forum here wrote that I very lucky that no one saw my OC, as I probably would have been arrested. I don't know if that is the case, as I believe I have seen posts from OC'ers here who said they also OC'd inside public libraries at times.
    Last edited by ed2276; 08-14-2014 at 11:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276 View Post

    One of the first places I carried was the public library on N.Buffalo. I passed by the SG and library employees a couple of times while I was there, and even went up to the counter to sign my wife and son up for cards. The staff behind the counter didn't say anything. I passed by the SG, who was stationed at the inside entrance into the library, on my way out of the library. I really don't know what it is about SG's inability to observe people and see a gun carried plainly in the open, but this one also didn't see my gun.
    I dont go in that library any longer. The guard was ready to shoot me over a empty holster. There is a thread on here someplace. Complete with letters back and forth with the library head.

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2276 View Post
    . The second time, I was in the middle of the casino and was approached by a suit, who politely told me that I couldn't open carry, but he didn't have a prob. if I concealed. I had to leave because I don't have a CCW. I still would have left if I did have a CCW, though.
    So, I know that we are all for OC, but this comment sparked a thought which spawned this question:

    If the "suit" (acting as an agent for the owner) gives you authorization to CC on his private property, then would not you be able to CC legally (even with out a valid CPL) on his private property? Similar to you being able to allow anyone to carry the way you would prescribe on your private property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by njkennelly View Post
    So, I know that we are all for OC, but this comment sparked a thought which spawned this question:

    If the "suit" (acting as an agent for the owner) gives you authorization to CC on his private property, then would not you be able to CC legally (even with out a valid CPL) on his private property? Similar to you being able to allow anyone to carry the way you would prescribe on your private property.
    [Fair warning: this reply is being made without checking Nevada law, first]

    It depends on the jurisdiction. In many places, a business that's on private property yet open to the public is still considered "public" for the purposes of the law. Also, many laws - like the ones that affect me - are written in such a way that I, as the OCer, have to be the one in control of the premises. So the property owner could legally carry in most (but not all) jurisdictions, but many won't allow them to extend that allowance to a visitor/customer.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackrockblc View Post
    [Fair warning: this reply is being made without checking Nevada law, first]

    It depends on the jurisdiction. In many places, a business that's on private property yet open to the public is still considered "public" for the purposes of the law. Also, many laws - like the ones that affect me - are written in such a way that I, as the OCer, have to be the one in control of the premises. So the property owner could legally carry in most (but not all) jurisdictions, but many won't allow them to extend that allowance to a visitor/customer.
    Thanks for the warning. Now for the confirmation. Nevada's use of "public" in "public property" means government-owned, not privately owned. There is no requirement to be "in control" of the property to have rights on it, as long as your implied invitation to be there has not been revoked by being told to leave a business that is open to the public.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkennelly View Post
    So, I know that we are all for OC, but this comment sparked a thought which spawned this question:

    If the "suit" (acting as an agent for the owner) gives you authorization to CC on his private property, then would not you be able to CC legally (even with out a valid CPL) on his private property? Similar to you being able to allow anyone to carry the way you would prescribe on your private property.
    The law does not allow that exception. Whether it would be prosecuted is untested. I would be especially leery of relying on "permission" that comes verbally from someone who is not likely to confirm it when you are arrested.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    The law does not allow that exception. Whether it would be prosecuted is untested. I would be especially leery of relying on "permission" that comes verbally from someone who is not likely to confirm it when you are arrested.
    I agree that upon arrest the "suit" would most likely choose to deny that permission was given. But to the first point...can I not choose to carry my firearm on my private property (say, my house) however I choose, and in turn, give you permission to do likewise on my private property?

    Hopefully not starting a fuss, just curious. However I do see (or not see, as the case may be) that the NRS does not specify such things. And I am mostly likely wrong, as I probably have not studied near as much as you all.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkennelly View Post
    I agree that upon arrest the "suit" would most likely choose to deny that permission was given. But to the first point...can I not choose to carry my firearm on my private property (say, my house) however I choose, and in turn, give you permission to do likewise on my private property?

    Hopefully not starting a fuss, just curious. However I do see (or not see, as the case may be) that the NRS does not specify such things. And I am mostly likely wrong, as I probably have not studied near as much as you all.
    As mentioned, NV's law does NOT give that exemption. I've never heard of an enforcement in a typical residence situation, but I would imagine that if the situation also involved another crime, it could very legitimately be added on as a felony charge, even in your own home.

    We have a training school located in Nye County that does training from concealment. They very specifically tell potential students on their website that a CCW permit is not needed. So they are banking on the lack of enforcement, and while I agree with them that it is not a problem, it is still technically a felony because of NV's poorly written law. That gives you an idea of the common-sense enforcement that most of us expect.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-14-2014 at 09:10 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member njkennelly's Avatar
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    Regular Member z28power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    As mentioned, NV's law does NOT give that exemption. I've never heard of an enforcement in a typical residence situation, but I would imagine that if the situation also involved another crime, it could very legitimately be added on as a felony charge, even in your own home.

    We have a training school located in Nye County that does training from concealment. They very specifically tell potential students on their website that a CCW permit is not needed. So they are banking on the lack of enforcement, and while I agree with them that it is not a problem, it is still technically a felony because of NV's poorly written law. That gives you an idea of the common-sense enforcement that most of us expect.
    Are you talking about Front Sight? If so, it's technically located in Windsor, CA - which is even better due to their strict CCW permit policy being completely ignored while training from concealment.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Windsor, CA? I show that as the wrong side of Sacramento. I know they were originally founded near Bakersfield, but I'm pretty darn sure their current site is Nye County, NV. Those are the only signs I've seen headed into there.

    This looks accurate, based on the roads I was on, and is well inside "free" territory: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fr...d25b1fd6ce2d73
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Corp office location differs from training locations
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