Surrendering open carry firearms for police inspection

XD40sc said:

If the cop runs the serial# then that is a violation of your 4th Amendment rights (illegal search).

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If the officer disarms you under the guise of "officer safety" and that action is upheld by the court, then if the serial number is visible on the weapon then I believe it would fall under the "plain view" doctrine.

I'd like to put a piece of electrical tape over the serial number plate on my pistol, but I'm as yet unsure if this would run afoul of federal law. I vaguely remember a gunsmith acquaintance telling of an instance where he had issues with BATFE for installing a tang sight on a lever gun, because the sight covered the serial number. Then again, Glocks come from the factory with a rail so that if a weapon light were mounted the serial number would not be visible.

skidmark said:

The time to argue is not on the side of the road.

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A big, big "+1" to this.

I'm confident in my knowledge of the law - but it is neither my obligation nor in my interests to attempt to educate a law enforcement officer of the same.

If I'm denied my legally-protected rights because of their ignorance, I'll deal with that the next day with their supervisor - or if necessary, in a court of law.

Grapeshot said:

Constitutional carry is OC or CC w/o being required to have a permission slip/permit.

OC is legal in Virginia, but not "granted by state law" - legal because of an absence of a statute denying that right to good, honest people.

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" ...where OC is not granted by state law, but there is no mention of OC in the law often called Constitutional carry),"

...we're saying the same thing here, except for the good, honest people part...the scumbags get to carry, too, until they get a felony...

Lyndsy Simon said:

If the officer disarms you under the guise of "officer safety" and that action is upheld by the court, then if the serial number is visible on the weapon then I believe it would fall under the "plain view" doctrine.

I'd like to put a piece of electrical tape over the serial number plate on my pistol, but I'm as yet unsure if this would run afoul of federal law. I vaguely remember a gunsmith acquaintance telling of an instance where he had issues with BATFE for installing a tang sight on a lever gun, because the sight covered the serial number. Then again, Glocks come from the factory with a rail so that if a weapon light were mounted the serial number would not be visible.

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...the "search" part wouldn't be in the taking and holding of the weapon, but in the running of the make, model, serial number if it were visible or not...I don't think plain view would apply because he's not authorized to "search" in the first place...

...the serial number need not be visible at all times...many grips conceal the serial number...Federal law deals with obliterationg it or changing it, but I haven't seen one that deals with covering it...

"§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]"

Lyndsy Simon said:

First of all, I've not once been bothered by law enforcement while open carrying in Virginia. I place credit for this fully at the feet of the VCDL, by virtue of the actions of its leadership and members.

That out of the way, I will not under any circumstances consent to disarm. If ordered to do so I will comply, because I'm not interested in arguing the finer points of law on the streets. If disarmed by order, I would respectfully ask that my firearm not be removed from its holster; I would far rather remove my belt. I carry a Glock 31, and I have no idea of the level of competency with firearms this theoretical LEO has. The last thing I'd want is for him or her to have their hand on a loaded handgun pointed at my leg. This also has the benefit of not exposing the weapon's serial number - if surrendered in a holster on demand for the purposes of "officer safety", removing it from the holster to run the serial number would constitute an illegal warrantless search.

As for identification, the only way I'm providing my driver's license is if I'm driving a motor vehicle on a public road. I carry a passport card, and I will provide that upon demand (not request). A passport card is legal identification, but does not contain any information regarding residency. The less information I can share, the better in my opinion.

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+100,000,000

sheepdog said:

...the "search" part wouldn't be in the taking and holding of the weapon, but in the running of the make, model, serial number if it were visible or not...I don't think plain view would apply because he's not authorized to "search" in the first place...

...the serial number need not be visible at all times...many grips conceal the serial number...Federal law deals with obliterationg it or changing it, but I haven't seen one that deals with covering it...

"§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]"

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I'm 99% sure "plain view" would apply here.

There have been many cases where an officer has seen drugs or drug paraphernalia while speaking to the residents at their door. Likewise, officers might spot the same while responding to a domestic disturbance call or acting under "exigent circumstances". All of these often result in charges.

As for covering a serial number, I would not be surprised in the least to learn that an ATF agent threatened my acquaintance over something that wasn't even illegal. I've simply not done enough of my own research into the matter to decide if sticking a piece of tape over that metal plate is worth the potential hassle.

Be sure you understand the laws for the states you plan to carry at all. They are likely very different - particularly Va and Ca.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws.aspx

...I've used "plain view" numerous times with success when it and I were a lot younger... in the examples you used it would be "plain view"...but for an officer to stop you and see your appointment book(a legal, non-contraband item) on your car seat beside you, then pick it up and begin to read it, and research info found in it...would not be "plain view"...it would be a search and require a warrant...
...if an officer's given the authority to temporarily disarm a citizen in the law, during an encounter and for his/citizen/safety of others...that doesn't give him authority to SEARCH the weapon or "check to see if it's stolen" etc. while he's "holding" it...so running it in the computer in this circumstance would be a search as much as would his firing it to match the bullet against others used in crimes...
...now if he took your weapon and saw engraved on the side "VA State Police" or "Joe Smith" and he'd gotten a flyer on "Joe Smith" having been burgled out of a few guns that had his name on them...plain view might indeed enter in...

...from the Wikipedia article on Plain View Doctrine"

{Plain view doctrine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search


The plain view doctrine allows an officer to seize – without a warrant – evidence and contraband found in plain view during a lawful observation. This doctrine is also regularly used by TSA Federal Government Officers while screening persons and property at U.S. airports.

For the plain view doctrine to apply for discoveries, the three-prong Horton test requires:
1.the officer to be lawfully present at the place where the evidence can be plainly viewed,
2.the officer to have a lawful right of access to the object, and
3.the incriminating character of the object to be “immediately apparent.”}


...the "temporary holding your weapon" circumstance we're discussing fails the third test...

sheepdog said:

" ...where OC is not granted by state law, but there is no mention of OC in the law often called Constitutional carry),"

...we're saying the same thing here, except for the good, honest people part...the scumbags get to carry, too, until they get a felony...

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Constitutional carry is having the option of OC or CC w/o penalty - CC is illegal w/o a CHP.

"Scumbags" and others restricted do not get to carry legally - all such restrictions are not felonies.

Maverick9 said:

Yeah like LEOs are going to be familiar with a 4th circuit court ruling. Better print out a copy and carry it with you. While they're reading it you slink away.

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They can read?

:lol:

Grapeshot said:

Constitutional carry is having the option of OC or CC w/o penalty - CC is illegal w/o a CHP.

"Scumbags" and others restricted do not get to carry legally - all such restrictions are not felonies.

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...NOW I see our differences...I'm addressing OC that is neither permitted or forbidden by State law...just not addressed in the law at all...you're going by the correct definition that includes BOTH CC and OC...and either is ignored by the State's law or specifically permitted by state law/constitution...right? "Vermont carry" would have been a more correct wording...but the term "Constitutional carry" is being commonly used to mean the same...not addressed in the law....

...as to the scumbags, yep, there're restrictions that aren't felonies...but my point was that many scumbags, as well as good honest people, get to carry where they don't have to ask the state for permission first...until they do something to incur that disability...

sheepdog said:

...snipped... the term "Constitutional carry" is being commonly used to mean the same...not addressed in the law....

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I know no one that uses that test in that manner.

Constitutional carry may be made legal by statute law or by case law also. The phrase "Constitutional carry" simply describes the condition/option of how one may carry. It does not define how that condition was obtained.

Think back to where Wash D.C. had ConCarry for a matter of hours after a court decision - such court decisions make up case law.

...Constitutional Carry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:




"In the United States, Constitutional Carry is a situation within a jurisdiction in which the carrying of firearms, concealed or not, is generally not restricted by the law."

...there's not a nickel's worth of difference between "not restricted by the law" and "not addressed in the law"

...the term's been used to describe several different situations...many different ways to get the government to let us do what the Constitution intended...we're down to clip, magazine...and that leaves the point I was making when I mentioned it...

The whole issue with an encounter with Law Enforcement is all the rules are subjective and in the opinion of the LEO. They are the ones who state "It is in my opinion..." of a situation led them to their actions. It is difficult to argue if you don't have any witnesses.

I've always felt that if time allows call 911 and set the phone down (in a car, sidewalk) allowing them to hear/record the conversation. I think this would be more important with a criminal if I drew my gun and tried to retain them until law enforcement arrives just in case the confrontation takes a downward turn.

I suspect if I were asked I would comply but there would be some questions asked first. I'm not one to challenge LE but have not experienced it yet either. Display respect and that is likely what you will get in return.

skidmark said:

* - "One is none and two is one." Some of us use two (or more) recorders. One visible or easily discovered, and another not so visible. Personally I like the USB stick recorders - around $10 from China and work well at the bottom of my shirt pocket or on a chain around my neck. I have a few folders on them with text files of medical info in case I end up in a hospital and cannot remember all the important stuff. One of the folders may or may not be for audio recordings as opposed to text files.

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Skid,

PLEASE tell me where to get one of these USB stick recorders.

TIA,
Nemo

nemo said:

Skid,

PLEASE tell me where to get one of these USB stick recorders.

TIA,
Nemo

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Google is your friend!

TFred

TFred said:

Google is your friend!

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Thanks.

I am pretty an old dog, so, if you ask, then I can say "Sure!" but I never think of the obvious, ahead of time. I can always ask a youngster, and there are more of those, every day.

That said, I don't use google but duck, instead.

nemo said:

Thanks.

I am pretty an old dog, so, if you ask, then I can say "Sure!" but I never think of the obvious, ahead of time. I can always ask a youngster, and there are more of those, every day.

That said, I don't use google but duck, instead.

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[strike]So just duck it!

The ~$10 ones are just as good as the ~$99 ones.[/strike]

That was not helpful, and I should be ashamed of myself for not being helpful.

I got mine in the mailbox.

stay safe.

Grapeshot said:

Constitutional carry is OC or CC w/o being required to have a permission slip/permit.

OC is legal in Virginia, but not "granted by state law" - legal because of an absence of a statute denying that right to good, honest people.

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Well tell that to Gaby Hoffman:

Repealing handgun-ban will make a safer D.C.

Here in the Commonwealth of Virginia, gun laws protecting open-carry and concealed-carry have made our state a safer place.

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[size=+2]A Unicorn anyone knows?[/size]

Unfortunately, we are still educating the media.

As to the picture above, the tattoo on her arm might give someone a clue.