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Thread: Cops Kill Man In Wal-Mart Carrying An Air Rifle That He Might Have Planned To Buy

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    Regular Member waskel's Avatar
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    Cops Kill Man In Wal-Mart Carrying An Air Rifle That He Might Have Planned To Buy


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    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-08-2014 at 09:17 AM.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    In most states (all?) if it looks like a real gun and the actions of the person carrying it are perceived as an immediate serious threat, then use of deadly force is justified/excusable.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Another shopper, 37-year-old Angela Williams, collapsed and died as she scrambled to get away after police fired at Crawford.
    No patience on the part of the cops. Just like the Sterling, Va shooting in Costco, they didn't even clear the store first. It resulted, according to reports in the death of two innocents.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Ours sells them for $47.88. My 6 year old wants me to get her that instead of a pink Red Ryder.



    I can see where they thought it might be real but then again I know how some cops purposely behave when they see an empty holster so I can also see it being a case of "PUT..." bangbangbang "DOWN..." bangbangbangbangbang "THE.." bang "GUN..." bangbang "GET ON THE GROUND!"



    And they killed some poor lady who was running to safety in the process. Throw the damn book at them for violation of rule 3...be sure of your target and what is beyond it.



    I've never seen the SCAR version. Just the M4 version. I like, but the kid is still getting the Red Ryder. More guns have leaf type sights and I think it's easier for a kid to shoot.

    Edit: I read Ohio and knew I'd see a mention of the NAACP. Pathetic. Nothing to do with race, probably more a god complex issue.
    Last edited by wimwag; 08-08-2014 at 09:27 AM.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    I think there's more to the story...

    Did the guy bring the gun into the store? Usually those things are in some kind of packaging. If so, maybe he planned to use it to rob the store?

    NEVERTHELESS, we need to train cops better. It's NOT ok to go into a crowded store, when no shots have been fired and immediately start killing people. Cops have time, cover, can call in back up, should be clearing the store. They could use a bullhorn from distance, wait it out. Here we see an innocent person killed. How is this a justifiable response. Bullets don't just all hit the intended target, either.

    Hope more comes out.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Thinking about this more, why aren't there rules of engagement that the PD has to follow. Levels of threat, shots fired or not, imminent danger, evidence of a crime.

    Here there was only 'failure to comply immediately with a lawful order', and that's probably a misdemeanor normally not a death sentence. The main job should be keeping things from escalating, clearing the store, establishing a perimeter, defining the threat level. None of that was done, and it appears from at least some witnesses he was not pointing at people and he had almost no time from the order to the time he was shot.

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    ...they didn't kill the 37-year-old woman...she died of a medical condition, according to the links...rule 3 doesn't explain this one...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...they didn't kill the 37-year-old woman...she died of a medical condition, according to the links...rule 3 doesn't explain this one...
    Proximate cause. "Medical condition" is meaningless from the media or a cop.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Need more answers, where were his hands on the air rifle. If not on the trigger group and not pointed at anybody there was no reason to shoot. If he was pointing the gun with hands ready to fire they are justified. Just like the old man shot with a cane, just because is not a good reason to kill people. The supervisors should NEVER comment and claim a shooting is justified until completely investigated.

    Whether the officers were justified is up in the air, the Chief of Police screwed the pooch with his comment.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...The supervisors should NEVER comment and claim a shooting is justified until completely investigated.

    Whether the officers were justified is up in the air, the Chief of Police screwed the pooch with his comment.
    Pavlovian response...genetics.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    The great thing about this incident is that Wal-Mart has, what I'm assuming are, hi-def cameras covering just about every inch of the store. Finding out what happened should be pretty easy.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Proximate cause. "Medical condition" is meaningless from the media or a cop.

    ...likely a heart attack or stroke...autopsy planned:

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...re-was-waving/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/source-w...ing-toy-rifle/


    ...if the cameras tell the story, and he WASN'T pointing it at children...the 911 caller shares some blame...this incident should make those who've been calling in on OCers think a bit...
    Last edited by sheepdog; 08-08-2014 at 11:25 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...likely a heart attack or stroke...autopsy planned: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...re-was-waving/
    This cannot be blamed on the cops, while it may have pushed her death a tad sooner, healthy people do not die from short term stress.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albert.cowlan View Post
    This entire event was over reacted. It appears the person who called also was shouting "man with a gun" forcing everyone into a panic. Other people who past by him didnt have issues. He was also in the store for a long while being observed by the couple that called.

    Heres my questions...

    Is the rifle sold at Wallmart in an box?

    If sold in a box, why did he remove it?

    When the call came in the dispatcher should have asked more questions about the behavior of the man?

    Cops came in guns drawn after hearing no shots?

    Cops did not observe the suspect from a distance to determine course of action?

    Cops gave no ample time for the suspect to drop the gun after barking out commands?

    The officer involvered was also involved in a deadly shooting back in 2010. That shooting was declared justified.

    I open carry with my wife all time at this Wallmart and have had no problem. And after this incident it makes me very causious to open carry arround this store. We are on pins and needles. The attitude of the cops need to change. The culture of law enforcement is corrupt. Its pretty bad when I hear anti gunners rant that all they have to do is call the police to take care of an open carrier.
    If I were you, I would continue to OC there if you must go back. This situation is exactly what OC is for IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    This cannot be blamed on the cops, while it may have pushed her death a tad sooner, healthy people do not die from short term stress.
    Without us being able to see any security footage, lets just say the police shot the man without justification or allowing him any time to comply with their orders, such as "drop the weapon" or "get down", would not them shooting, thus creating the stressful situation be their fault? After all, if it turns out the man was not in any way doing anything illegal with the toy gun, such as pointing it at people or doing anything else threatening, then it would mean the police shot him without justification, which further scared others in the area which may have resulted in the stress which killed this woman.

    Of course, this is assuming she died after they fired the shots. I'm not entirely of the exact sequence of events (did she die running out as the police entered, or running out after the police opened fire?).

    Just my thoughts.

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    Regular Member Makarov's Avatar
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    This entire event was over reacted. It appears the person who called also was shouting "man with a gun" forcing everyone into a panic. Other people who past by him didn't have issues. He was also in the store for a long while being observed by the couple that called.*

    Here's my questions...

    Is the rifle sold at Walmart in an box?

    If sold in a box, why did he remove it?

    When the call came in the dispatcher should have asked more questions about the behavior of the man?

    Cops came in guns drawn after hearing no shots?

    Cops did not observe the suspect from a distance to determine course of action?

    Cops gave no ample time for the suspect to drop the gun after barking out commands?

    The officer involved was also involved in a deadly shooting back in 2010. That shooting was declared justified.

    I open carry with my wife all time at this Walmart and have had no problem. And after this incident it makes me very cautious to open carry around this store. We are on pins and needles. ...........

    --Rules #6 violation deleted by Moderator--
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-10-2014 at 12:25 PM.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
    This entire event was over reacted. It appears the person who called also was shouting "man with a gun" forcing everyone into a panic. Other people who past by him didn't have issues. He was also in the store for a long while being observed by the couple that called.*

    Here's my questions...

    Is the rifle sold at Walmart in an box?

    If sold in a box, why did he remove it?

    When the call came in the dispatcher should have asked more questions about the behavior of the man?

    Cops came in guns drawn after hearing no shots?

    Cops did not observe the suspect from a distance to determine course of action?

    Cops gave no ample time for the suspect to drop the gun after barking out commands?

    The officer involved was also involved in a deadly shooting back in 2010. That shooting was declared justified.

    I open carry with my wife all time at this Walmart and have had no problem. And after this incident it makes me very cautious to open carry around this store. We are on pins and needles. The attitude of the cops need to change. .....

    --Rule 36 violation deleted by Moderator--
    Are you albert.cowlan?

    Also if I'm not mistaken, a pellet gun is not a toy.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-10-2014 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    Without us being able to see any security footage, lets just say the police shot the man without justification or allowing him any time to comply with their orders, such as "drop the weapon" or "get down", would not them shooting, thus creating the stressful situation be their fault? After all, if it turns out the man was not in any way doing anything illegal with the toy gun, such as pointing it at people or doing anything else threatening, then it would mean the police shot him without justification, which further scared others in the area which may have resulted in the stress which killed this woman.

    Of course, this is assuming she died after they fired the shots. I'm not entirely of the exact sequence of events (did she die running out as the police entered, or running out after the police opened fire?).

    Just my thoughts.
    ...this link from above explains that... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/source-w...ing-toy-rifle/
    Last edited by sheepdog; 08-08-2014 at 11:28 AM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    Without us being able to see any security footage, lets just say the police shot the man without justification or allowing him any time to comply with their orders, such as "drop the weapon" or "get down", would not them shooting, thus creating the stressful situation be their fault? After all, if it turns out the man was not in any way doing anything illegal with the toy gun, such as pointing it at people or doing anything else threatening, then it would mean the police shot him without justification, which further scared others in the area which may have resulted in the stress which killed this woman.

    Of course, this is assuming she died after they fired the shots. I'm not entirely of the exact sequence of events (did she die running out as the police entered, or running out after the police opened fire?).

    Just my thoughts.
    I don't know the justification for the shooting, more information needed. What I do know is healthy people, or people in fair health do not just keel over from short term stress or even pain. A person must be on deaths door for that to happen, now it may have speed up what was already happening, heart disease, but you are talking probably no more than a month or so.

    I have a weak heart, though not as bad as some and worse than most. My EF after surgery and before DF/pacemaker was implanted was less than 30%. And I didn't die after the surgery even considering I woke up during surgery. Talk about stress having your whole chest split open, tied down, and tubes in your throat so you can't call out for help. Long term stress is a killer, it is one of those factors that increases the production of fat in the blood. Not a doctor but I have had it explained to me enough times by doctors. Lack of exercise, smoking, drinking, stress, weight, eating habits as well as family history bring on heart disease, but this is all long term. One incident of stress did not kill her, she was going to die, IMO her death cannot be blamed on police, even if they unjustly shot the young man.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdog View Post
    ...this link from above explains that... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/source-w...ing-toy-rifle/
    Where does it explain that?

    "According to WHIO, 37-year-old Angela D. Williams was at the store at the time and collapsed while running away from the situation. She was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. The coroner's office reported that Williams had a medical condition which was the cause of her death. The woman's coworkers told the station she was to be married on Saturday."

    "...while running away from the situation."

    Which situation? The man with the toy gun, or the police shooting the man with the toy gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I don't know the justification for the shooting, more information needed. What I do know is healthy people, or people in fair health do not just keel over from short term stress or even pain. A person must be on deaths door for that to happen, now it may have speed up what was already happening, heart disease, but you are talking probably no more than a month or so.

    I have a weak heart, though not as bad as some and worse than most. My EF after surgery and before DF/pacemaker was implanted was less than 30%. And I didn't die after the surgery even considering I woke up during surgery. Talk about stress having your whole chest split open, tied down, and tubes in your throat so you can't call out for help. Long term stress is a killer, it is one of those factors that increases the production of fat in the blood. Not a doctor but I have had it explained to me enough times by doctors. Lack of exercise, smoking, drinking, stress, weight, eating habits as well as family history bring on heart disease, but this is all long term. One incident of stress did not kill her, she was going to die, IMO her death cannot be blamed on police, even if they unjustly shot the young man.
    You very well might be right, however if it does turn out that the shooting was not justified, and they created a stressful situation for the bystanders, I believe the family members / fiance could have a case. No idea if it would win, of course. I'd like to think they'd win - maybe it would make police more accountable for their actions for when things like this happen. Of course this is only assuming that they just ran up and shot the man. If he was in fact pointing the toy gun at people and otherwise acting threatening, I would definitely say the police response is justified.

    No way to know until more information / video is released. It's just a shame that there's other people who get injured / killed as a result of this, especially if it turns out the shooting was unjust. I should say it's MORE of a shame than what it already is.
    Last edited by Hareuhal; 08-08-2014 at 11:27 AM. Reason: I can't spell today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Two identical posts from different people

    Will the real user/poster please stand up.
    Me thinks Makarov may have meant to quote & forgot to include his own comments....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    Where does it explain that?

    "According to WHIO, 37-year-old Angela D. Williams was at the store at the time and collapsed while running away from the situation. She was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. The coroner's office reported that Williams had a medical condition which was the cause of her death. The woman's coworkers told the station she was to be married on Saturday."

    "...while running away from the situation."

    Which situation? The man with the toy gun, or the police shooting the man with the toy gun?
    ...the Fox link from above is more specific than the CBS...but neither says for sure http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2...re-was-waving/

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I don't know the justification for the shooting, more information needed. What I do know is healthy people, or people in fair health do not just keel over from short term stress or even pain. A person must be on deaths door for that to happen, now it may have speed up what was already happening, heart disease, but you are talking probably no more than a month or so.

    I have a weak heart, though not as bad as some and worse than most. My EF after surgery and before DF/pacemaker was implanted was less than 30%. And I didn't die after the surgery even considering I woke up during surgery. Talk about stress having your whole chest split open, tied down, and tubes in your throat so you can't call out for help. Long term stress is a killer, it is one of those factors that increases the production of fat in the blood. Not a doctor but I have had it explained to me enough times by doctors. Lack of exercise, smoking, drinking, stress, weight, eating habits as well as family history bring on heart disease, but this is all long term. One incident of stress did not kill her, she was going to die, IMO her death cannot be blamed on police, even if they unjustly shot the young man.
    I'm inclined to agree to an extent, but part of me truly believes that it's perfectly feasible for a civilian to have a coronary if they are shot at and truly are afraid that they might be executed. A prior condition may soften the blow in regards to liability, but it's really hard to deny that stress was a factor in the woman's death, and the cops opening fire caused that stress. If I were a lawyer I would most definitely take the case.

    Take this example, for instance:

    You get into a scuffle with a man who has had surgery to repair his jaw, and he has a weakened bone structure in his face. You throw the first punch (stupidly) and shatter his face and jaw with one punch, causing serious injury. You are arrested and charged with Felony Assault and Battery of a High and Aggravated Nature. Is the charge dropped to a lesser charge solely on the basis that the victim had a weakened bone structure that you weren't aware of that contributed to the serious injury? Does it even matter?
    Last edited by The Truth; 08-08-2014 at 11:39 AM. Reason: added an example

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