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Thread: Dayton RTA - carry prohibition?

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Dayton RTA - carry prohibition?

    I came across information somewhere that Dayton's RTA (Regional Transit Authority) prohibits carry on their buses, so I checked it out. It appears they do: http://www.i-riderta.org/mobile/rules_of_the_road.aspx (#15)

    I called this morning and first got the answer that carry was okay, then after checking with security, was told that it was not, so I wrote a note to the safety director:

    "Mr. Napier,

    I found your contact information here: http://www.i-riderta.org/customer_su...o_the_top.aspx

    Im a gun owner and a CHL (concealed handgun license) holder. It has come to my attention that you have a policy against riders carrying firearms or knives on RTA buses: http://www.i-riderta.org/mobile/rules_of_the_road.aspx, part of which states 15. Customers may not carry onto an RTA vehicle any item, which could cause injury or damage to RTA riders or property including firearms, knives or such hazardous materials as gasoline, propane tanks or car batteries.

    It is my understanding that there is no law which allows a public entity such as RTA to disallow the carry of firearms on your buses or property. In addition, I am unaware of a law which allows RTA to ban the carrying of knives on its buses or property.

    The carry of firearms in public buildings is a separate topic, and one I am not raising here.

    This morning I called customer support, asked my question, and a little while later a Mr. Windsor called me back, and said that he believed I could carry my firearm on your buses. Then, he put me on hold and when he came back he said that he had checked with security and was told the answer was No. He then said he would be glad to have the head of security, Barb Brookshire, call me back later since she was at lunch at the time.

    I will be in and out this afternoon, but regardless of the answer, because Id like a response in writing, and because Ive gotten two conflicting answers so far, Id like to know if the information on your website is an oversight, or is it RTA policy? I dont know whether your buses have similar information posted on them, but if they do, my question applies to those locations also.

    Assuming that the information posted, wherever it may be posted, is RTA policy, Id like to make you aware of an Ohio law that applies to public entities such as RTA, Ohio Revised Code 9.68 (ORC 9.68, or just 9.68). Part of the law allows individuals or entities to seek legal redress for the dissemination of such policies: (B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/gp9.68

    I look forward to your response, and thank you in advance."


    I'll keep everyone posted as to what happens.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Well, it took a second contact with customer service, but I got a call back from the aforementioned Ms. Brookshire today. She left me a message that indeed, in line with their "Rules of the Road", it was NOT okay to carry my firearm on their buses. :-(

    I just left another message for her, asking for her e-mail address, and better yet the e-mail address of the head of RTA or of their legal department.

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    Glad to see you're chasing down these issue in Ohio BB62. Good luck!

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Sounds like this issue needs to be pressed. Regardless if the bus line is an authority, they're supervised and operated under a set of local governments. They must abide by state law and I'm not seeing anything in the ORC which gives an exception for them to prohibit firearms on their vehicles.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    I'm currently communicating with Mark Donaghy, the executive director of Dayton RTA, and am in the process of providing him with materials, references, case law and contacts of legal for other transit authorities who've already changed their rules/policies/ordinances to comply with state law.
    Last edited by david.ross; 08-27-2014 at 12:49 PM.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Quote Originally Posted by david.ross View Post
    I'm currently communicating with Mark Donaghy, the executive director of Dayton RTA, and am in the process of providing him with materials, references, case law and contacts of legal for other transit authorities who've already changed their rules/policies/ordinances to comply with state law.
    Excellent! Thanks!

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    The Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority (the Authority) provides virtually all public mass
    transportation within Montgomery County. The Authority is governed by a nine-member board of
    trustees and is an independent political subdivision of the State of Ohio organized pursuant to Ohio
    Revised Code Section 306.30 through 306.71, inclusive, as amended
    http://www.i-riderta.org/assets/1/wo...nager/3534.PDF pg 15

    I think they're screwed if they think 9.68 doesn't apply to them.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJack View Post
    http://www.i-riderta.org/assets/1/wo...nager/3534.PDF pg 15

    I think they're screwed if they think 9.68 doesn't apply to them.
    It is page 15 of the PDF, but page 13 of the report.

    Good job. It's all out there if you dig far enough.

    Greater Dayton Regional Transit Authority you are cooked beyond well done.
    Book em Danno!!!!!!!

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    There is this also:
    306.31 Creating regional transit authority.
    A regional transit authority may be created in the manner provided in section 306.32 of the Revised Code, for any one or more of the following purposes: acquiring, constructing, operating, maintaining, replacing, improving, and extending transit facilities; controlling and administering the public utilities franchise of such transit facilities; entering into and supervising franchise agreements; accepting assignment of and then supervising an existing franchise agreement; and accepting assignment of and exercising a right to purchase a transit system in accordance with the acquisition terms of an existing franchise agreement. A regional transit authority so created is a political subdivision of the state and a body corporate with all the powers of a corporation, comprised of the territory of one, or two or more counties, municipal corporations, townships, or any combination thereof, provided, that each county, municipal corporation, or township included within a regional transit authority shall be a county which is, or be located in a county which is or is contiguous to a county which is, or in which a municipal corporation or township is located which is, included in such regional transit authority.

    Cite as R.C. 306.31

    History. Effective Date: 08-25-1970
    Here is what I presume they'll try to use as a defense:
    306.35 Regional transit authority - powers and duties.
    Upon the creation of a regional transit authority as provided by section 306.32 of the Revised Code, and upon the qualifying of its board of trustees and the election of a president and a vice-president, the authority shall exercise in its own name all the rights, powers, and duties vested in and conferred upon it by sections 306.30 to 306.53 of the Revised Code. Subject to any reservations, limitations, and qualifications that are set forth in those sections, the regional transit authority:

    ...

    (D)

    (1) May adopt, amend, and repeal bylaws for the administration of its affairs and rules for the control of the administration and operation of transit facilities under its jurisdiction, and for the exercise of all of its rights of ownership in those transit facilities;

    (2) The regional transit authority also may adopt bylaws and rules for the following purposes:

    (a) To prohibit selling, giving away, or using any beer or intoxicating liquor on transit vehicles or transit property;

    (b) For the preservation of good order within or on transit vehicles or transit property;

    (c) To provide for the protection and preservation of all property and life within or on transit vehicles or transit property;

    (d) To regulate and enforce the collection of fares.
    Now,the question (to me) becomes, does this part of 9.68 allow them to make these rules, or prevent them?
    Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.
    To me, the key word is "specifically". Nothing in 306.35 'specifically' says they can prohibit firearms, but it does 'specifically' state that they can pass bylaws/rules and (D)(b)(c) can be construed, by someone who thinks guns are only used to wreck havoc, to prohibit firearms in an effort to "provide for the protection and preservation of all property and life within or on transit vehicles or transit property" and "For the preservation of good order within or on transit vehicles or transit property".

    IANAL, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda, ect, ad nauseam, et infinitum.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    They are permitted to make any of those rules they wish as long as those rules do not conflict with the general laws of Ohio.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJack View Post
    There is this also:


    Here is what I presume they'll try to use as a defense:


    Now,the question (to me) becomes, does this part of 9.68 allow them to make these rules, or prevent them?

    To me, the key word is "specifically". Nothing in 306.35 'specifically' says they can prohibit firearms, but it does 'specifically' state that they can pass bylaws/rules and (D)(b)(c) can be construed, by someone who thinks guns are only used to wreck havoc, to prohibit firearms in an effort to "provide for the protection and preservation of all property and life within or on transit vehicles or transit property" and "For the preservation of good order within or on transit vehicles or transit property".

    IANAL, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda, ect, ad nauseam, et infinitum.
    If the transit authority attempted to use this, the courts would look at this section here:
    9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

    (A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

    Far as I'm concerned, their goose is cooked. I'll intentionally carry openly in order to force them to comply by state law.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    I apologize...I know this is an old thread however I just wanted to see if anything came of this? I'm having trouble understanding how the bus line is different than private property posting no gun signs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    I apologize...I know this is an old thread however I just wanted to see if anything came of this? I'm having trouble understanding how the bus line is different than private property posting no gun signs?
    Did you read the thread?

    If you had you would have noticed that one is public property and the other is private property...

    I never pursued it further, and am currently involved in another matter. If you were in Dayton, I'd see if we could get together when time allowed, and we could pursue it jointly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Did you read the thread?

    If you had you would have noticed that one is public property and the other is private property...

    I never pursued it further, and am currently involved in another matter. If you were in Dayton, I'd see if we could get together when time allowed, and we could pursue it jointly.
    yes i did read it. guess i got lost in there somewhere my apologies

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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    yes i did read it. guess i got lost in there somewhere my apologies
    No problem.

    Keep reading, posting stuff, and asking questions. OCDO (OpenCarryDotOrg) is a great place!

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    I apologize...I know this is an old thread however I just wanted to see if anything came of this? I'm having trouble understanding how the bus line is different than private property posting no gun signs?
    Public property open to the public is the the citizens property. The government is consistently attempting to deny the citizen from exercising their rights on public property, your/our property.

    Generally, private property owners have the right to limit your rights on their private property. The government does not have that unfettered right to deny you the right to exercise your rights. ORC 9.68 denies local government from interfering with your gun rights. So when a local government or a political subdivision (libraries, public transportation, parks) post signs or create regulations in violation of state law those local laws are void on their face.
    Last edited by color of law; 10-21-2015 at 07:47 PM.

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    i didnt know buses were considered public property till now thanks for the info. on another note i nevet thought about libraries...i need to get my info together snd contact the celina library which is part of auglaize county library system. they have it posted

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    i didnt know buses were considered public property till now thanks for the info. on another note i nevet thought about libraries...i need to get my info together snd contact the celina library which is part of auglaize county library system. they have it posted
    Hold on just a minute. Don't go open carrying into a public building. There is a dispute as to your right to open carry into a public building. If you do not have the funds to put-up a vigorous defense I suggest you not push that button.

    I'm on the side of you having the right to open carry in the public areas of state buildings. At some point I'll push that button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    i didnt know buses were considered public property till now thanks for the info. on another note i nevet thought about libraries...i need to get my info together snd contact the celina library which is part of auglaize county library system. they have it posted
    "Buses" in general are not public property, publicly owned/operated buses are public property.

    The reason that carry on a public bus is legal is because there is not a law against it, not because the bus is public property. Carry on a public bus in Ohio is subject to the same laws as carry in a private vehicle - a loaded handgun is only allowed if one possesses an Ohio CHL or its equivalent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Hold on just a minute. Don't go open carrying into a public building. There is a dispute as to your right to open carry into a public building. If you do not have the funds to put-up a vigorous defense I suggest you not push that button.

    I'm on the side of you having the right to open carry in the public areas of state buildings. At some point I'll push that button.
    to be clear o have disarmed at all librarirs as i wasnt clear on lae until tonight. thanks for the heads up though i appreciate it
    i never said i was going to do that. i disarned when i went there. auglauze library however is not posted and one place id rather keep it concealed
    Last edited by caleb4387; 10-22-2015 at 10:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    "Buses" in general are not public property, publicly owned/operated buses are public property.

    The reason that carry on a public bus is legal is because there is not a law against it, not because the bus is public property. Carry on a public bus in Ohio is subject to the same laws as carry in a private vehicle - a loaded handgun is only allowed if one possesses an Ohio CHL or its equivalent.
    ok thanks..i believe ive got that cleared up.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    i never said i was going to do that. i disarned when i went there. auglauze library however is not posted and one place id rather keep it concealed
    Posted or not, CC in a public building is against the law.

    "Off-limits" places are either statutory (like public buildings as well as some private property under many circumstances) or because of conspicuously posted signage (other private property).

    Statutory off-limits places are supposed to have signage, but because they don't doesn't make them any less off-limits.

    You need to read and understand (and should have already sought out) this publication from the Ohio Attorney General regarding Concealed Carry: http://tinyurl.com/ont3a26
    Last edited by BB62; 10-22-2015 at 09:47 AM. Reason: added AG link

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    i never said i was going to do that. i disarned when i went there. auglauze library however is not posted and one place id rather keep it concealed
    I was giving you a heads-up and making sure you did not misunderstand my statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Posted or not, CC in a public building is against the law.

    "Off-limits" places are either statutory (like public buildings as well as some private property under many circumstances) or because of conspicuously posted signage (other private property).

    Statutory off-limits places are supposed to have signage, but because they don't doesn't make them any less off-limits.

    You need to read and understand (and should have already sought out) this publication from the Ohio Attorney General regarding Concealed Carry: http://tinyurl.com/ont3a26
    i read through that thing every day..seems theres always something to get hung up on..so library counts as "government building" so no carry...grr...

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    Quote Originally Posted by caleb4387 View Post
    i read through that thing every day..seems theres always something to get hung up on..so library counts as "government building" so no carry...grr...
    Who did you think owns the library?

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