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Thread: Definition of a School.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Definition of a School.

    I'm not sure if this comes under federal law, state or both but what actually is a school? Is there a difference between a school in session and not? For example voting in the summer, school is not in session.What about as the schools attached to churches or even families that homeschool? It pays to be very sure as i'm sure there are LEOs who would jump at the chance to steal another citizens firearm.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    According to the GFSZ a school is where accredited instruction in any of the grades K - 12 takes place. Schools do not stop being schools on the weekends or during school vacations, or when the local community players put on "The Sound of South Pacific''s Seven Brothers*".

    Public schools, parochial schools, independent/unaffiliated schools. If it has just a nursery school/day care center it is not a school. Some of the church schools are pre-K to grade 3 or 4. They are GFSZs. Because the school part has an inside physical connection to the rest of the building, the whole place is a GFSZ. (And I'm not eager to go to federal court and put up a defense that because the church building is not physically connected to the school I should be allowed a pass for bringinng a gun to church (otherwise legal where I live).

    And remember, the GFSZ extends 1000 feet from the outer boundary of the school property, not from the outside of the school building.

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    According to the GFSZ a school is where accredited instruction in any of the grades K - 12 takes place. Schools do not stop being schools on the weekends or during school vacations, or when the local community players put on "The Sound of South Pacific''s Seven Brothers*".

    Public schools, parochial schools, independent/unaffiliated schools. If it has just a nursery school/day care center it is not a school. Some of the church schools are pre-K to grade 3 or 4. They are GFSZs. Because the school part has an inside physical connection to the rest of the building, the whole place is a GFSZ. (And I'm not eager to go to federal court and put up a defense that because the church building is not physically connected to the school I should be allowed a pass for bringinng a gun to church (otherwise legal where I live).

    And remember, the GFSZ extends 1000 feet from the outer boundary of the school property, not from the outside of the school building.

    stay safe.

    * - It was a great musical comedy. Have not laughed so much since seeing that several years ago.
    Isnt this where having a permit helps. IIRC if you have a permit in WI there is no 1000 feet restriction. Now.... if I were to get a CCW, would I have to disarm before entering the church/school parking lot or would I be safe enough to remove mag, put it in one place in a vehicle and the gun in another compartment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    According to the GFSZ a school is where accredited instruction in any of the grades K - 12 takes place. Schools do not stop being schools on the weekends or during school vacations, or when the local community players put on "The Sound of South Pacific''s Seven Brothers*".
    1-12 not K-12.
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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teej View Post
    1-12 not K-12.

    Correct. I believe the exclusion of Kindergartens is due to many schools having only half days or partial weeks for kindergarteners. Where we juat moved, all day kindergarten is a new thing this year. (lucky for me.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    I'm not sure if this comes under federal law, state or both but what actually is a school? Is there a difference between a school in session and not? For example voting in the summer, school is not in session.What about as the schools attached to churches or even families that homeschool? It pays to be very sure as i'm sure there are LEOs who would jump at the chance to steal another citizens firearm.
    The Wisconsin effective definitions are in as directed from Wisconsin Statutes 948.605 Gun-free school zones. (1)  Definitions. In this section: [ ... ](b) "School" has the meaning given in s. 948.61 (1) (b).
    948.61  Dangerous weapons other than firearms on school premises.
    (1) In this section:
    [ ... ]
    (b) "School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in s. 115.001 (15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Isnt this where having a permit helps. IIRC if you have a permit in WI there is no 1000 feet restriction. Now.... if I were to get a CCW, would I have to disarm before entering the church/school parking lot or would I be safe enough to remove mag, put it in one place in a vehicle and the gun in another compartment?
    WI doesn't have a permit, it has licenses.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Here's the federal law:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

    18USC921(a)(26)
    The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    (So could be K-12 or 1-12.)

    18USC921(a)(25)
    The term “school zone” means—(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.


    Here's the WI law:
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...atutes/948/605

    948.605(1)
    (b) "School" has the meaning given in 948.61(1)(b)
    (c) "School zone" means any of the following:
    1. In or on the grounds of a school.
    2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

    948.61(1)(b)
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...tes/948/61/1/b
    "School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in 15.001(15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.

    15.001(15m)
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat.../115/I/001/15m
    Tribal school is K-12, with some stipulations on who controls it.

    ************************

    Yes, having a ccl protects us from persecution for being on public property in the school zone.
    But WI ignores the part of the federal "GF"SZ law which allows licensees to be in the school or zone.
    Idiots. Endangering children for no good reason.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-10-2014 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    Isnt this where having a permit helps. IIRC if you have a permit in WI there is no 1000 feet restriction. Now.... if I were to get a CCW, would I have to disarm before entering the church/school parking lot or would I be safe enough to remove mag, put it in one place in a vehicle and the gun in another compartment?
    ...here's the text of the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922 scroll down to q (2) read B (ii)
    Last edited by sheepdog; 08-10-2014 at 09:20 PM.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    School: A daycare center that indoctrinates your kid using government approved propaganda.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    School: A daycare center that indoctrinates your kid using government approved propaganda.
    Do you think they mess around with the government approved food somehow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky View Post
    Do you think they mess around with the government approved food somehow?
    LOL Remember saltpeter in military messes?
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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Great. Go to worship, put your life in your hands just because they decide to have a school that teaches decent history instead of the propaganda of Common Core. Thats real clever *eyeroll*
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    WI doesn't have a permit, it has licenses.

    Same difference. Either way it's a permission slip. Without it, you don't have gubment permission to conceal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    LOL Remember saltpeter in military messes?
    You betcha.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    If I'm not mistaken, on the grounds of a school unloaded in a case is allowed.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, on the grounds of a school unloaded in a case is allowed.
    It may as well be left at home then as it's not capable of defending oneself and defeats the whole purpose of carrying
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    It may as well be left at home then as it's not capable of defending oneself and defeats the whole purpose of carrying
    Well if I could rewrite the regulations, the whole book would be about 1\16 thick and about 3\64ths of it would be definitions. In case you're mathematically challenged, that's almost 1\16th.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

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    My wife is a school District Administrator in N Wisconsin. We both have our Wi CCL and open carry in the summer. I keep a gun case in my truck in case she calls while I am in town and needs me to bring her lunch, for example. I unload and encase off property, then drive onto school property. The way I read the law I could carry an unloaded, encased firearm right into the school as that would be "in or onto" school grounds. I don't. I like that idea better than leaving it in my vehicle, can't be stolen and also available, but........see next paragraph.

    I've talked to a bunch of LEO and have gotten everything from stay off 1000 feet to yes you are correct. They can't all be right, so apparently it is confusing? I don't care to be a test case, nor cause her to lose her job. She makes way more than I do!

    Also, the Police do not carry into the school building because they are the Police, but because there is an exception to the law written specifically for them. There are also 7 other exceptions to the school gun law that allow some type of carry on school property, for non LEOs. My wife could make me a security officer, for example. She hasn't, and I don't want to be one. I believe her school has a board policy on this, but lacking that it is up to the Administrator.

    I don't know how the Fed GFSZ works with this, but that's what I make out of the Wisconsin law.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 08-24-2014 at 07:52 PM.

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    Regular Member vinchenzo's Avatar
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    Okay... I'm sure this has been addressed on the forums, but we're talking about "schools" here, so I figured it's as good a spot as any to bring it up...

    How does any GFSZ law, or any WI State Statute, apply to technical schools and colleges? Specifically for my interests, the Truax Campus of MATC. Is there any State Statute banning carry on premise, or is it like a business that can post if they want?


    Basically, if I go to MATC for a class or a visit or something, can I carry on campus, and/or in building? Or is there a Statute/Law forbidding firearms on the campus period.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinchenzo View Post
    Okay... I'm sure this has been addressed on the forums, but we're talking about "schools" here, so I figured it's as good a spot as any to bring it up...

    How does any GFSZ law, or any WI State Statute, apply to technical schools and colleges? Specifically for my interests, the Truax Campus of MATC. Is there any State Statute banning carry on premise, or is it like a business that can post if they want?


    Basically, if I go to MATC for a class or a visit or something, can I carry on campus, and/or in building? Or is there a Statute/Law forbidding firearms on the campus period.
    Post 2: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post2081123

    Colleges can ban the buildings but not the property (under WI law).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Wstar425:

    Wisconsin Code 948.605 Governs Firearms within 'School-Safety Zones'.

    The Code can be Viewed here: http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...atutes/948/605

    Basically, under (2)(b)(1r) a Licensee is Exempt from The Prohibition, unless; The Licensee is Actually in, or on The Grounds of, a School.

    To put it another Way..., The '1000' Rule' does NOT Apply to or Effect a Licensee, but The Licensee CANNOT Enter The Grounds of a School or The School Building. Furthermore, under 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(B)(i) and (2)(b)(1m), a Person who is in, on, or within PRIVATE PROPERTY not Part of a School is Completely Exempt, whether or not The Property is within 1000' of a School and whether or not The Person has a License.

    aardvark

    *** A Person who is NOT a Licensee and Who Possesses a Firearm within 1000' of a School is Subject to Class B Forfeiture. However, Class B Forfeiture is Legally Different than an Arrest, as This Type of Forfeiture only Includes a Fiduciary Punishment. ***
    Last edited by aadvark; 09-03-2014 at 12:52 PM.

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    Regular Member vinchenzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Post 2: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post2081123

    Colleges can ban the buildings but not the property (under WI law).
    I did see post 2, but I wasn't sure if that was ALL that was said about schools, or if a part about tech colleges/universities was left out or in a different section. So thank you for the clarification there.


    Okay, so they can post the buildings, but not the property. So would that then mean the penalty for carrying in a building at a tech school or university, where I didn't see or didn't look hard enough for a "No Weapons" sign, would be the same Class B forfeiture as if I didn't see a sign at a restaurant or store?

    Sorry, I know. This is probably child's play to most of you. But this is one of my gray areas and love to get clarification when I can. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by vinchenzo; 09-03-2014 at 05:05 PM.

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    Open carry within 1000 feet of school with WI CCL question

    Having trouble getting my head around this one. Hope someone can explain.

    I'm a Wisconsin resident with a CCL, but I open carry most of the summer. Bought a S&W M&P 15-22 at Mel's Trading Post in Rhinelander. I was open carry in the store, and in the process of doing paperwork he mentioned that their store was within 1000 feet of two schools.

    So, my question is this, maybe a couple of questions. If I am open carry there, within 1000 feet of a school, how would anyone know if I had a CCL without asking me? So, I walk out the door with my new purchase in the box, and a 686 on my belt and I run into RPD officer, say. He sees my gun, open carry, I'm within 1000 feet of two schools. What now? I have a permit, so I'm legal, but he doesn't know I have a permit unless he asks. Am I required to show my permit if I am within 1000 feet of a school. The entire downtown is pretty much within 1000 feet if a school. Am I missing something, or is this a problem?

    I asked the salesman this, he didn't know. But it seems to me that would be an important bit of information for them to know since they sell guns within 1000 feet of a school? He didn't give me the impression he was going to look into it, and probably forgot before I got out the door.


    On a totally unrelated note, I purchased a Henry Golden Boy .22 from Walmart in St. Croix Falls, again while open carry. The salesman did the paperwork, I paid the bill and he said I have to walk you and this gun outside of the store before I can give it to you. I said you realize I'm standing here with a loaded handgun on my belt, right? His response: store policy. So we walked.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 09-03-2014 at 06:01 PM.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    Having trouble getting my head around this one. Hope someone can explain.





    I'm a Wisconsin resident with a CCL, but I open carry most of the summer. Bought a S&W M&P 15-22 at Mel's Trading Post in Rhinelander. I was open carry in the store, and in the process of doing paperwork he mentioned that their store was within 1000 feet of two schools.





    So, my question is this, maybe a couple of questions. If I am open carry there, within 1000 feet of a school, how would anyone know if I had a CCL without asking me? So, I walk out the door with my new purchase in the box, and a 686 on my belt and I run into RPD officer, say. He sees my gun, open carry, I'm within 1000 feet of two schools. What now? I have a permit, so I'm legal, but he doesn't know I have a permit unless he asks. Am I required to show my permit if I am within 1000 feet of a school. The entire downtown is pretty much within 1000 feet if a school. Am I missing something, or is this a problem?








    On a totally unrelated note, I purchased a Henry Golden Boy .22 from Walmart in St. Croix Falls, again while open carry. The salesman did the paperwork, I paid the bill and he said I have to walk you and this gun outside of the store before I can give it to you. I said you realize I'm standing here with a loaded handgun on my belt, right? His response: store policy. So we walked.


    Lol that's dumb. That store got Robbed by a BB gun bandit a few years ago. I carried in there the next day. Nobody batted an eye.



    The store is on private property. Private property is exempt from the 1000 foot rule. An openly carried firearm is not RAS for a stop just as driving is not RAS for a traffic stop to check for a license.

    If you live across from a school you can OC on your property without a license because it's private property. Same goes for stores. On private property you cam conceal without a license because its private property.
    Last edited by wimwag; 09-03-2014 at 06:06 PM.

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