Definition of a School.

protias said:

Post 2: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-of-a-School&p=2081123&viewfull=1#post2081123

Colleges can ban the buildings but not the property (under WI law).

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I did see post 2, but I wasn't sure if that was ALL that was said about schools, or if a part about tech colleges/universities was left out or in a different section. So thank you for the clarification there.


Okay, so they can post the buildings, but not the property. So would that then mean the penalty for carrying in a building at a tech school or university, where I didn't see or didn't look hard enough for a "No Weapons" sign, would be the same Class B forfeiture as if I didn't see a sign at a restaurant or store?

Sorry, I know. This is probably child's play to most of you. But this is one of my gray areas and love to get clarification when I can. Thanks in advance.

Open carry within 1000 feet of school with WI CCL question

Having trouble getting my head around this one. Hope someone can explain.

I'm a Wisconsin resident with a CCL, but I open carry most of the summer. Bought a S&W M&P 15-22 at Mel's Trading Post in Rhinelander. I was open carry in the store, and in the process of doing paperwork he mentioned that their store was within 1000 feet of two schools.

So, my question is this, maybe a couple of questions. If I am open carry there, within 1000 feet of a school, how would anyone know if I had a CCL without asking me? So, I walk out the door with my new purchase in the box, and a 686 on my belt and I run into RPD officer, say. He sees my gun, open carry, I'm within 1000 feet of two schools. What now? I have a permit, so I'm legal, but he doesn't know I have a permit unless he asks. Am I required to show my permit if I am within 1000 feet of a school. The entire downtown is pretty much within 1000 feet if a school. Am I missing something, or is this a problem?

I asked the salesman this, he didn't know. But it seems to me that would be an important bit of information for them to know since they sell guns within 1000 feet of a school? He didn't give me the impression he was going to look into it, and probably forgot before I got out the door.


On a totally unrelated note, I purchased a Henry Golden Boy .22 from Walmart in St. Croix Falls, again while open carry. The salesman did the paperwork, I paid the bill and he said I have to walk you and this gun outside of the store before I can give it to you. I said you realize I'm standing here with a loaded handgun on my belt, right? His response: store policy. So we walked.

Wstar425 said:

Having trouble getting my head around this one. Hope someone can explain.





I'm a Wisconsin resident with a CCL, but I open carry most of the summer. Bought a S&W M&P 15-22 at Mel's Trading Post in Rhinelander. I was open carry in the store, and in the process of doing paperwork he mentioned that their store was within 1000 feet of two schools.





So, my question is this, maybe a couple of questions. If I am open carry there, within 1000 feet of a school, how would anyone know if I had a CCL without asking me? So, I walk out the door with my new purchase in the box, and a 686 on my belt and I run into RPD officer, say. He sees my gun, open carry, I'm within 1000 feet of two schools. What now? I have a permit, so I'm legal, but he doesn't know I have a permit unless he asks. Am I required to show my permit if I am within 1000 feet of a school. The entire downtown is pretty much within 1000 feet if a school. Am I missing something, or is this a problem?








On a totally unrelated note, I purchased a Henry Golden Boy .22 from Walmart in St. Croix Falls, again while open carry. The salesman did the paperwork, I paid the bill and he said I have to walk you and this gun outside of the store before I can give it to you. I said you realize I'm standing here with a loaded handgun on my belt, right? His response: store policy. So we walked.

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Lol that's dumb. That store got Robbed by a BB gun bandit a few years ago. I carried in there the next day. Nobody batted an eye.



The store is on private property. Private property is exempt from the 1000 foot rule. An openly carried firearm is not RAS for a stop just as driving is not RAS for a traffic stop to check for a license.

If you live across from a school you can OC on your property without a license because it's private property. Same goes for stores. On private property you cam conceal without a license because its private property.

Well, I'm not sure I you're saying I'm dumb, Walmart store policy is dumb, or the 1000 foot open carry question is dumb? I will assume you are talking about the Walmart policy. My bad, I had too many different things going on in one post. I open carried in that Walmart for two years and always had nice conversations with the self checkout lady from Montana.

While Mel's is private property, as soon as I step out the door, I am no longer on private property. If I decide to stroll 4 blocks up towards the Catholic school to get some ice cream, I'm on a city sidewalk.

If I'm open carry on the sidewalk directly in front of a school, what is likely to happen, and what should my response be? Trying to simplify my question.

Wstar425 said:

Well, I'm not sure I you're saying I'm dumb, Walmart store policy is dumb, or the 1000 foot open carry question is dumb? I will assume you are talking about the Walmart policy. My bad, I had too many different things going on in one post. I open carried in that Walmart for two years and always had nice conversations with the self checkout lady from Montana.

While Mel's is private property, as soon as I step out the door, I am no longer on private property. If I decide to stroll 4 blocks up towards the Catholic school to get some ice cream, I'm on a city sidewalk.

If I'm open carry on the sidewalk directly in front of a school, what is likely to happen, and what should my response be? Trying to simplify my question.

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Yup, was referring to the WalMart policy. My bad for the vague response.

I have no idea what the response would be. Probably an attempted consensual conversation. If it isn't and your rights are violated, message me. In that case, I and a friend or two will ram it down their throats with a nice slow long gun hand gun maybe even crossbow OC walk through the school zones.

All my encounters in Clear Lake, New Richmond and a few other towns have been mixed. One made the news, the rest were cops following me from a distance in their cruisers or non reactions.

Don't hold your breath star. Alot of bloviating and very little action seems to be the mo.

Well, I'm not looking to get shot, make a point, or jeopardize my wife's job. I can just imagine how that would look, she is a School District Administrator after all. Today's headline: Local SDA's husband shot outside a school with a gun! No thanks.

However, Mel's and most of downtown Rhinelander is within 1000 feet of one or both schools. I'm there some, open carry. Is that not a valid question? If someone is open carry within 1000 feet of a school, how would they know if you had a CCL without asking. Does the 1000 foot rule not apply to open carry? I'm trying to ask what I think is a legitimate question here, not start WW3.

If you have a permit the 1000 foot rule doesn't apply, with handguns or long guns. But they cannot stop and ask just because you're OCing.

Franky, eat ****.

Your response should be silence. Say nothing but "am I being detained?". If yes "what crime am I suspected of committing?". If you are innocent, stand your ground. Do not hand over your weapon, do not tell them anything.

wimwag said:

If you have a permit the 1000 foot rule doesn't apply, with handguns or long guns. But they cannot stop and ask just because you're OCing.

Franky, eat ****.

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Right, but you can open carry WITHOUT a license. So, if an open carry person is within 1000 feet of a school, on public property walking, how would anyone know if they had a license, and thus legal; or did not have a license, and thus illegal? I don't see how you would know without asking, but you don't have to answer. That seems like a real potential bad situation.

Maybe the RAS would be carrying a firearm in a GFSZ WITHOUT a license, and thus you would have to show the license? I don't know, just thinking out loud. But, this seems like a real potential problem to me, but maybe I am just making it one. Does your CCL make you legal while open carry within 1000 feet of a school? That seems kind of weird.

Wstar, I've been accosted outside a school zone by police because in their line of reasoning, I was near a school zone. Even though I have a permit, I refused to ID, refused to hand over my weapons and refused to speak with the officers. Take it as proof. I would have been fine without a license because I broke no laws and there was no justification to stop me.

It's a great set of laws. Be legal. Do legal things. Let us know if you get hassled.

gutshot said:

1. In order to detain or officially question a suspect a LEO must have RAS that a crime is being committed. What suspicion does he have that the person does not have a license? None, unless he has some specific knowledge that the person is ineligible for a license or has had his license revoked or suspended. In other words, he would need more information that he would normally have. He can't randomly stop cars to check if every driver has a valid drivers license and he can't do it for guns either. Just a hunch is not enough. He must have a real suspicion. We don't have to prove that everything we do each day is legal; they must prove that what we are doing is illegal.

2.The GFSZ says that a person holding a CCL is exempt from the restrictions of that law. It doesn't say anything about that person actually concealing a firearm. If he has a license, he can not be convicted of violating that law.

3. If you are really afraid that a LEO is going to shot you for carrying a gun, my advice is to not do it. What kind of police do they have in your city? Do they routinely shoot people for doing nothing but legal activity? That seems a bit excessive to me.

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Yeah, nobody has been shot by the police in the last, oh, 100 years or so. The safest thing you could probably do is to open carry on the sidewalk in front of a school, where you are REQUIRED to have a CCL, and then refuse to show it when the SWAT team showed up. I mean, you would be about the safest person in the world, with your own personal, highly trained protection unit. What bad guy would ever attemp to rob you with all that around? Whatever was I thinking, silly me!

Now that we have that out of the way, the are two facts in this scenario that are in potential direct conflict.

1. It is legal to open carry, without a CCL, in Wisconsin.

2. You are REQUIRED to have a CCL to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school, on public property.

So, you open carry on the sidewalk in front of a school, how is anyone to know if you have a CCL or not? Is the default position that you DO have a CCL, or that you don't?

I'm asking is the being inside 1000 feet combined with open carry RAS to ask to see your CCL? Lacking one, you would be committing a crime.

Two of you have already given your opinion, so I don't really need to hear the same thing over again. But feel free anyway. I get it, without RAS, they can't ask. Outside of the 1000 foot zone, I agree completely.

If you're that afraid to do it then don't. We've answered your questions and you've repeated your line of questioning. I responded to you about my OCing between a pair of schools and the cop only following from a distance.

I can't think of or find on google any instance of a law abiding open carrier being shot. Falsely arrested? Yes. Detained? Yes. But not shot. Wisconsin has become one of the most gun friendly states in the last decade.

Wstar425 said:

two facts in this scenario that are in potential direct conflict.
1. It is legal to open carry, without a CCL, in Wisconsin.
2. You are REQUIRED to have a CCL to carry a firearm within 1000 feet of a school, on public property.

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Those aren't in conflict at all.

So, you open carry on the sidewalk in front of a school, how is anyone to know if you have a CCL or not? Is the default position that you DO have a CCL, or that you don't?

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The default position of the statute is that it's illegal to be on publicly-owned property within 1000' of the edge of a school property, in possession of a usable firearm.
There are stated exceptions to that general rule, but the person in possession of the firearm would have to prove that s/he meets one of those exceptions, which includes having a CCL.

I'm asking is the being inside 1000 feet combined with open carry RAS to ask to see your CCL? Lacking one, you would be committing a crime.

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In the discussions I've had with other instructors & people who have read the law extensively,
we pretty much all agree that the law is set up so that possessing a usable firearm on public property in a school zone is a crime,
and having a CCL is a defense to being convicted of that crime.

So yes, the cop would have RAS & be allowed to demand to see your CCL & DL if s/he saw you in possession of a firearm on public property in a school zone.

Doug said:

I don't recall an exception for the unlicensed public passing within 1000 feet of a school on the public right of way.

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Motofixxer said:

If I'm not mistaken, on the grounds of a school unloaded in a case is allowed.

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Yes. Unloaded & encased, it's perfectly legal.
948.605(2)(b)(3)(a)

Wstar425 said:

Does your CCL make you legal while open carry within 1000 feet of a school?

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Yes.
See 175.60(2)(c)
"Unless expressly provided in this section, this section does not limit an individual's right to carry a firearm that is not concealed."

I've talked to a bunch of LEO and have gotten everything from stay off 1000 feet to yes you are correct.

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Never ask a LEO to interpret the law. It's not their job, and likely they don't know the gun laws which apply to citizens, only LEO, or only the very basics (things like, "you can't have a gun at a school", which is not universally true).

vinchenzo said:

How does any GFSZ law, or any WI State Statute, apply to technical schools and colleges?

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If you'd read previous posts, you would have seen this one, which says in part:

948.61(1)(b)
"School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in 15.001(15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.

Basically, if I go to MATC for a class or a visit or something, can I carry on campus, and/or in building? Or is there a Statute/Law forbidding firearms on the campus period.

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You're allowed to be armed on campus, but they can prohibit self-defense in buildings, except for parking structures.
Here's the statute.
http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/943/II/13/1m/c/5

Of course, by posting "keep out, evil gun owners" signs, they've lost their immunity from liability.
Pretty stupid of them.

175.60(21)(b)
A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.

vinchenzo said:

would that then mean the penalty for carrying in a building at a tech school or university, where I didn't see or didn't look hard enough for a "No Weapons" sign, would be the same Class B forfeiture as if I didn't see a sign at a restaurant or store?

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Yes. If you're a student or staff member, though, the school could do other nasty things to you, but no, there's no possible jail time associated with the "offense".

MKEgal said:

If you'd read previous posts, you would have seen this one, which says in part:

948.61(1)(b)
"School" means a public school, parochial or private school, or tribal school, as defined in 15.001(15m), which provides an educational program for one or more grades between grades 1 and 12 and which is commonly known as an elementary school, middle school, junior high school, senior high school, or high school.


You're allowed to be armed on campus, but they can prohibit self-defense in buildings, except for parking structures.
Here's the statute.
http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/943/II/13/1m/c/5

Of course, by posting "keep out, evil gun owners" signs, they've lost their immunity from liability.
Pretty stupid of them.

175.60(21)(b)
A person that does not prohibit an individual from carrying a concealed weapon on property that the person owns or occupies is immune from any liability arising from its decision.


Yes. If you're a student or staff member, though, the school could do other nasty things to you, but no, there's no possible jail time associated with the "offense".

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Thank you. That clears it all up.

MKEgal said:

Those aren't in conflict at all.


The default position of the statute is that it's illegal to be on publicly-owned property within 1000' of the edge of a school property, in possession of a usable firearm.
There are stated exceptions to that general rule, but the person in possession of the firearm would have to prove that s/he meets one of those exceptions, which includes having a CCL.


In the discussions I've had with other instructors & people who have read the law extensively,
we pretty much all agree that the law is set up so that possessing a usable firearm on public property in a school zone is a crime,
and having a CCL is a defense to being convicted of that crime.

So yes, the cop would have RAS & be allowed to demand to see your CCL & DL if s/he saw you in possession of a firearm on public property in a school zone.

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Thank you! That is the way I read it as well, but obviously not everyone does. I couldn't quite put my finger on what there was in this scenario that seemed not quite right to me. You nailed it for me. I'm on and off, as well as near school property every day, so it's important I get this right. I agree 100 percent that asking LEO for legal advice is dicey and they nearly always tell you what they want you to think, and probably wrong.

MKEgal said:

In the discussions I've had with other instructors & people who have read the law extensively,
we pretty much all agree that the law is set up so that possessing a usable firearm on public property in a school zone is a crime,
and having a CCL is a defense to being convicted of that crime.

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Apart from the fact plain, obvious interpretation of the Second Amendment proves it is not illegal and enforcing those infringements is the actual crime. We need to stop referring to infringements as laws. They arent. Though old there is precedent for not recognising them as law. Otherwise enjoy being a slave to the system. Only a matter of time before there is a major shooting in Wisconsin and i'm there there will be people who wished they had violated those 'non-laws' and protected lives.

Yes I am aware of forum rules and I don't advocate breaking the law, I advocate recognising what is law in the first place and ignoring the rest.

Nightmare said:

The liability issue is confused here by school property not being owned by an individual, "a person".

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Schools are funded by the local authority. whether it be city or county. Therefore it is funded by the People and therefore as per preemption laws no banning of carry is allowed. The prohibition in the Statutes is a violation of both that and the Second Amendment and therefore not law.