Refusal to surrender your weapon

Epyon · Aug 12, 2014

Hello everyone. I'm new here, and this is my first post, so I apologize if it's in the wrong place or anything.

To preface my question, I am naturally very untrusting of LEO's in general. Even when I am sure the individual I'm dealing with is an officer, it only marginally improves my comfort with them, but that aside, I hear all the time of people criminally impersonating police officers. A very close friend of mine was actually raped by an imposter cop, so I have made it my mindset to ALWAYS doubt a LEO's identity/authenticity.

If I am legally carrying (open or concealed) and I find myself in an encounter with a supposed LEO who will obviously demand I surrender my weapon, can I refuse to do so pending some verification of the officer's identity? If so, how?

I (mostly) know my way around a LEO encounter. I am, of course, calm, polite, and respectful. I know there is no other option than to cooperate when dealing with a legitimate law enforcement officer, not just in surrendering my weapon, but with any demands or orders, even if I disagree with them or they are outright illegal, and that such complaints will have to be dealt with after the encounter. I am willing to be disarmed by a real officer for his or her pace of mind, but for my own safety and peace of mind, I want to be 100% certain that he or she IS a real officer first.

skidmark · Aug 12, 2014

Epyon said:
....
If I am legally carrying (open or concealed) and I find myself in an encounter with a supposed LEO who will obviously demand I surrender my weapon, can I refuse to do so pending some verification of the officer's identity? If so, how?

I (mostly) know my way around a LEO encounter. I am, of course, calm, polite, and respectful. I know there is no other option than to cooperate when dealing with a legitimate law enforcement officer, not just in surrendering my weapon, but with any demands or orders, even if I disagree with them or they are outright illegal, and that such complaints will have to be dealt with after the encounter. I am willing to be disarmed by a real officer for his or her pace of mind, but for my own safety and peace of mind, I want to be 100% certain that he or she IS a real officer first.

1 - Welcome to OCDO. Would you consider editing your profile to narrow down your location - "U.S." is a pretty big patch of ground and some differences in law may have a bearing on what the answer to a question will be.

2 - Yes, you can refuse. Be aware that there are some significant negative results to be expected from doing so.

2a - You may want to assess the level of paranoia you seem to have regarding imitation cops.

3 - Why are you "willing to be disarmed by a real officer for his or her pace of mind" if you have done nothing to demonstrate or suggest that you have any ill intent? Same question regarding "for my own safety and peace of mind"?

The administrative manipulation of a firearm only increases the chance that it will be mishandled, resulting in a negligent discharge which may result in physical injury. Is not the LEO as safe if you just don't touch your handgun?

How do you feel about the "habit" of some LEOs applying handcuffs during even a consensual stop "for officer safety"?

Given your admitted paranoia that the person in front of you may be an imitation LEO, how/why is "[your] own safety and peace of mind" enhanced by surrendering your weapon?

Presuming the encounter to be, at least in the beginning, a consensual stop, why are you willing to accept a violation of your 4th Amendment rights in order to facilitate the "safety and peace of mind" of the LEO and yourself? (Are there other rights you are willing to allow to be violated for the sake of "safety and peace of mind"?)

BTW - I am not known as one who climbs on soapboxes and shouts that all violations of constitutional rights must be forcefully resisted on the spot where/when any violation occurs. There have been numerous discussions of how to indicate your disagreement with the violation of your rights that does not put you in high jeopardy of getting beaten/shot right then and right there. While the search function here is wonky, and the advanced search often just as wonky, I suggest you try to find and follow at least some of those discussions. And while you are at it, do a search for "digital voice recorder".

In closing, we are quite a bit leery of folks who say "I am a supporter of __ but ...." I don't know enough about you yet to suggest that you fall in that category or are an over-zealous Constitutional Rights warrior, or somewhere in between. Stick around and let us get to know you.

stay safe.

davidmcbeth · Aug 12, 2014

Well, OP, exactly what would you do if a person you think is not a cop approaches you?

color of law · Aug 12, 2014

Epyon said:
I (mostly) know my way around a LEO encounter. I am, of course, calm, polite, and respectful. I know there is no other option than to cooperate when dealing with a legitimate law enforcement officer, not just in surrendering my weapon, but with any demands or orders, even if I disagree with them or they are outright illegal, and that such complaints will have to be dealt with after the encounter. I am willing to be disarmed by a real officer for his or her pace of mind, but for my own safety and peace of mind, I want to be 100% certain that he or she IS a real officer first.

Polite, well mannered, civil, courteous, mannerly, respectful, deferential, well behaved, well bred, gentlemanly, genteel, gracious, urbane or diplomatic are the very words that describe the attitude that I expect when a police officer wishes to interfere with my time, let alone my rights. However, these are not words describing an attitude I'm required to convey in turn. Yet, depending on the situation I may choose to be polite. Many factors play into how I react.

I recently had a cop who was ticked-off because I would not respect his authority. I have not found any local, state or federal law requiring the citizen to show any respect towards their servants, elected or hired. The last time I checked, you earn respect. Anyone demanding respect doesn't deserve respect.

stealthyeliminator · Aug 12, 2014

As stated, I'm sure the details depend on your state.

As for me, I'll not voluntarily surrender my firearm to an officer whether they've adequately confirmed their identity or not... There is no need for it, and it certainly doesn't make me any safer, even if it makes them a little safer (edit: it doesn't). I don't think I'm out of place to decline trading my safety for theirs. Their job should be to make me safer, not make themselves safer at my expense.

I have been disarmed once, though. The officer uttered the most practiced, insincere "for my safety and yours" that I've ever heard.

davidmcbeth · Aug 12, 2014

Cops should learn the old adage: you can be 100% right and still be wrong

OC for ME · Aug 13, 2014

If in doubt call 911 and tell them that you are facing a cop impersonator.

davidmcbeth · Aug 13, 2014

First posting by new member ... heck of a post .. and now he's gone.

I vote to close the thread.

Lyndsy Simon · Aug 14, 2014

stealthyeliminator said:
As stated, I'm sure the details depend on your state.

As for me, I'll not voluntarily surrender my firearm to an officer whether they've adequately confirmed their identity or not... There is no need for it, and it certainly doesn't make me any safer, even if it makes them a little safer (edit: it doesn't). I don't think I'm out of place to decline trading my safety for theirs. Their job should be to make me safer, not make themselves safer at my expense.

I have been disarmed once, though. The officer uttered the most practiced, insincere "for my safety and yours" that I've ever heard.

+1

I'll also never consent to be disarmed. I will disarm at the demand of an armed law enforcement officer, but I will make it verbally clear than I am only doing so under duress - then I'll ask that I be allowed to remove my belt instead of removing my firearm from its holster, seeing that avoiding mishandling of a firearm reduces the risk for all involved.

OC for ME · Aug 14, 2014

Platitude = "for my safety and yours"

"for my safety and yours" = "I don't trust anyone but a cop to possess a gun. Unfortunately I am not the king."

Epyon · Aug 18, 2014

skidmark said:
1 - Welcome to OCDO. Would you consider editing your profile to narrow down your location - "U.S." is a pretty big patch of ground and some differences in law may have a bearing on what the answer to a question will be.

2 - Yes, you can refuse. Be aware that there are some significant negative results to be expected from doing so.

2a - You may want to assess the level of paranoia you seem to have regarding imitation cops.

3 - Why are you "willing to be disarmed by a real officer for his or her pace of mind" if you have done nothing to demonstrate or suggest that you have any ill intent? Same question regarding "for my own safety and peace of mind"?

The administrative manipulation of a firearm only increases the chance that it will be mishandled, resulting in a negligent discharge which may result in physical injury. Is not the LEO as safe if you just don't touch your handgun?

How do you feel about the "habit" of some LEOs applying handcuffs during even a consensual stop "for officer safety"?

Given your admitted paranoia that the person in front of you may be an imitation LEO, how/why is "[your] own safety and peace of mind" enhanced by surrendering your weapon?

Presuming the encounter to be, at least in the beginning, a consensual stop, why are you willing to accept a violation of your 4th Amendment rights in order to facilitate the "safety and peace of mind" of the LEO and yourself? (Are there other rights you are willing to allow to be violated for the sake of "safety and peace of mind"?)

BTW - I am not known as one who climbs on soapboxes and shouts that all violations of constitutional rights must be forcefully resisted on the spot where/when any violation occurs. There have been numerous discussions of how to indicate your disagreement with the violation of your rights that does not put you in high jeopardy of getting beaten/shot right then and right there. While the search function here is wonky, and the advanced search often just as wonky, I suggest you try to find and follow at least some of those discussions. And while you are at it, do a search for "digital voice recorder".

In closing, we are quite a bit leery of folks who say "I am a supporter of __ but ...." I don't know enough about you yet to suggest that you fall in that category or are an over-zealous Constitutional Rights warrior, or somewhere in between. Stick around and let us get to know you.

stay safe.

You make some very good points. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

1. I will update my profile eventually. It was the wee hours of the morning when I made an account just to ask this question haha. I live in baton Rouge, Louisiana. Any specific information my location is appreciated, but I would also like to know about the nation in general.

2&2a. those results are a lot of what I was asking about, and I know that my paranoia level is high enough to cause concern in some people, but it is well founded on personal experience and reliable 1st hand accounts.

3. This is actually a very good question for which I have no answer. I am now rethinking my stance on this, but the part about my own safety and peace of mind was that if I were to surrender my weapon, it would only be with the knowledge that he or she is acting in an official capacity. I didn't mean my safety or peace of mind would be enhanced by handing over my weapon, quite the opposite, but what I meant was that my safety and peace of mind would be somewhat enhanced by at least knowing that I am dealing with a real LEO before doing so.

Again, similar to your 3rd point, I hadn't thought of it that way. My thinking was that if I were ordered, not asked, to surrender my weapon, it would be as I'm being detained, in which case I assume they would insist on applying handcuffs as well. I would disagree with both of these, and as you said, I would verbally protest, but not physically resist, but this again goes back to my question, because if I'm dealing with an officer who refuses to verify his or her identity, then I would resist by any and all means in my power.

Indeed, I hope I do not fit into either of those groups. I like to think of myself as a very reasonable and rational person. You've given me much to think on. Thank you.

To everyone else, thank you for your replies as well. I wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly, or I would have come back sooner.

Maverick9 · Aug 18, 2014

One phrase that works is 'I'd rather not...'.

MSG Laigaie · Aug 18, 2014

Firstly, Welcome to OCDO and I hope you stick around. Fresh minds and all that, eh?

skidmark said:
2 - Yes, you can refuse. Be aware that there are some significant negative results to be expected from doing so.

The administrative manipulation of a firearm only increases the chance that it will be mishandled, resulting in a negligent discharge which may result in physical injury. Is not the LEO as safe if you just don't touch your handgun?

On the first, what will you do if the LEO takes it anyway? Resist? Negotiate?
On two, the safest place is in the holster it was designed for. The more you play, the more you pay.

Nightmare said:
Respect is good, but fear works. Either we are equal or we are not. Why I am armed.

Good point. The last time I was bullied by a LEO I was verbally aggressive. Be careful with that though, your mileage may vary.

Refusal to surrender your weapon

Epyon

New member

skidmark

Campaign Veteran

davidmcbeth

Banned

color of law

Accomplished Advocate

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member

davidmcbeth

Banned

OC for ME

Regular Member

davidmcbeth

Banned

Lyndsy Simon

Regular Member

OC for ME

Regular Member

Epyon

New member

Maverick9

Regular Member

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran