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Deputy mistakes daughter, 16, for intruder, shoots her as she snuck in through garage

twoskinsonemanns

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to me 2SKINS is that if it was so dark he couldn't even tell his own kid. how could you recognize that someone was attacking you.

MAC702 here in NC, we have a castle doctrine, but it only cover risk to your life or sever bodily injury. in other words you can not use deadly force if someone is stealing your TV, or what ever.

He believed a person unauthorized to be in his house broke in and invaded it. The person then came toward him.
In WV the law allows you to shoot if the resident "reasonably apprehends that the intruder or attacker may kill or inflict serious bodily harm" or "if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder or attacker intends to commit a felony in the home or residence and the occupant reasonably believes deadly force is necessary."

The key to the situation as far as I am concerned is the belief that the person was an intruder. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he feared for his life or his family's lives. I am also assuming that if you could stop time and ask him, as he saw this person coming toward him in the dark, he would guaranty with out a doubt in his mind that the person coming toward him was not his daughter or anyone else authorized to be there. IMHO he would be covered by WV law of which I agree and use as my standard. That is why I say he should not do time.

Whether that jives with the laws in his state I don't know or really care. I just was giving my opinion. I would do the same if someone set off my alarm and came at me in the dark and I knew in my mind it was not one of my family.
 

skidmark

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....
Whether that jives with the laws in his state I don't know or really care. I just was giving my opinion. I would do the same if someone set off my alarm and came at me in the dark and I knew in my mind it was not one of my family.

Which is why this thread is approaching train wreck status. It happened in Virginia and will be handled both administratively and judicially by the policies and laws of Virginia.

We have

http://www.virginia1774.org/Page6.html

Fear Alone is not Enough

Commonwealth v. Sands, 262 Va. 724, 553 S.E.2d 733 (2001).


"The principles governing a plea of self-defense are well-established. Self-defense is an affirmative defense to a charge of murder, and in making such a plea, a "defendant implicitly admits the killing was intentional and assumes the burden of introducing evidence of justification or excuse that raises a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors." McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978). The "bare fear" of serious bodily injury, or even death, however well- grounded, will not justify the taking of human life. Stoneman v. Commonwealth, 66 Va. (25 Gratt.) 887, 900 (1874). "There must [also] be some overt act indicative of imminent danger at the time." Vlastaris v. Commonwealth, 164 Va. 647, 652, 178 S.E. 775, 776 (1935). See also Yarborough v. Commonwealth, 217 Va. 971, 975, 234 S.E.2d 286, 290 (1977); Mercer v. Commonwealth, 150 Va. 588, 597, 142 S.E. 369, 371 (1928). In other words, a defendant "must wait till some overt act is done[,] . . . till the danger becomes imminent." Vlastaris, 164 Va. at 652, 178 S.E. at 777. In the context of a self-defense plea, "imminent danger" is defined as "[a]n immediate, real threat to one's safety . . . ." Black's Law Dictionary 399 (7th ed. 1999). "There must be . . . some act menacing present peril . . . [and] [t]he act . . . must be of such a character as to afford a reasonable ground for believing there is a design . . . to do some serious bodily harm, and imminent danger of carrying such design into immediate execution." Byrd v. Commonwealth, 89 Va. 536, 539, 16 S.E. 727, 729 (1893).
In holding that the trial court erroneously refused to instruct the jury on self-defense, the Court of Appeals construed the term "imminent" to mean something less than "immediate." Sands, 33 Va. App. at 678, 536 S.E.2d at 465 (quoting Sam v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 312, 325, 411 S.E.2d 832, 839 (1991)). Applying its view of that term, the Court of Appeals concluded that, "nder the facts of this case, the fact finder could reasonably have concluded that [the defendant] was without fault in beginning the altercation, reasonably apprehended she was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and, thus, was justified in shooting her husband to prevent him from killing her or further inflicting serious bodily harm upon her." Sands, 33 Va. App. at 679, 536 S.E.2d at 465.

We agree that the defendant reasonably believed that she was in danger of serious bodily harm or death. Nevertheless, that reasonable belief is not dispositive of the issue before us in this appeal. The question here is whether the circumstances immediately surrounding the killing, specifically, the actions of the defendant's husband at that time, were sufficient to create a reasonable belief of an imminent danger which had to be met. The Court of Appeals did not squarely address this requirement of an overt act.

Even when viewed in the light most favorable to the defendant, the evidence fails to reveal any overt act by her husband that presented an imminent danger at the time of the shooting. The last episode between the defendant and her husband occurred after the defendant telephoned Shelton. Then, sufficient time elapsed for Shelton to arrive at the couple's home, and for the defendant to view the extent of her injuries while in the bathroom with Shelton, walk from the bathroom to the living room door, turn around and proceed back into the kitchen, retrieve a gun from a cabinet, and walk back into the bedroom where her husband was reclining on the bed, watching television. At that moment, the only reaction by the defendant's husband was his question, "What are you doing[?]" While we do not doubt the defendant's genuine fear for her life or minimize the atrocities inflicted upon her, we cannot point to any evidence of an overt act indicating imminent danger, or indeed any act at all by her husband, when she shot him five times while he reclined on the bed. Nor did the Court of Appeals cite to any such evidence. Thus, the defendant was not entitled to an instruction on self-defense. The requirement of an overt act indicative of imminent danger ensures that the most extreme recourse, the killing of another human being, will be used only in situations of necessity. "The plea of self-defense is a plea of necessity and the necessity must be shown to exist or there must be shown such reasonable apprehension of the immediate danger, by some overt act, as to amount to the creation of necessity." Vlastaris, 164 Va. at 651, 178 S.E. at 776.

CONCLUSION

For these reasons, we will reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and enter final judgment reinstating the convictions. Reversed and final judgment."


"Castle Doctrine" is not a free shot in Virginia.

Which is why we spend our time learning what the laws - especially case law - are. And why while it might be nice to know how things are done in oter states, we pretty much don't care unless we can use them for models for legislation we would like to see introcuced, passed, and signed into our laws.

stay safe.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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It happened in Virginia and will be handled both administratively and judicially by the policies and laws of Virginia.

Yes quite obviously since it happened in VA. I doubt someone from another state posting their opinion of whether or not jail time is deserved in the VA thread will cause a train wreck.
 

skidmark

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Yes quite obviously since it happened in VA. I doubt someone from another state posting their opinion of whether or not jail time is deserved in the VA thread will cause a train wreck.

Could you point to where you opine about whether or not jail time being deserved?

stay safe.
 

skidmark

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Yes quite obviously since it happened in VA. I doubt someone from another state posting their opinion of whether or not jail time is deserved in the VA thread will cause a train wreck.

Could you point to where you opine about whether or not jail time being deserved?

Opinions, regardless of where they originate, are welcome. Statements about "this is how we do it here"/"this is what would happen here" are just so much cluttering up.

stay safe.
 

OC for ME

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...The mere breaching of the walls of the castle do not allow for invoking the defense of Castle Doctrine.
Of course is does, that is kinda the point behind calling it "castle doctrine." Even in VA, shooting someone is not the same as killing someone.

Which is why this thread is approaching train wreck status. It happened in Virginia and will be handled both administratively and judicially by the policies and laws of Virginia....
See above. Citing a court case where the intruder was killed does not fit the circumstance that the good deputy finds himself in. Unless the daughter has taken a turn for the worse in her treatment.

The teenager was listed in stable condition at a Winchester hospital.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...r-after-mistaking-her-for-burglar-106117.html
The real question is why is he on administrative leave for a off-duty incident. Desk duty?
 

Wolf_shadow

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Of course is does, that is kinda the point behind calling it "castle doctrine." Even in VA, shooting someone is not the same as killing someone.
Castle Doctrines are not blank checks, and have limitations.

See above. Citing a court case where the intruder was killed does not fit the circumstance that the good deputy finds himself in. Unless the daughter has taken a turn for the worse in her treatment. Whether the circumstance of the person shot lived or died is not the point, the point is whether the shooting was legal or not. The point is whether the action is legal under the law as court precedence and the written law.

The real question is why is he on administrative leave for a off-duty incident. Desk duty?
1) Being investigated for a possible crime!
2) Possible fitness for duty eval. (how has this effected his ability to respond in the future (Psych))
Know the law where you are, where you are and where I am may not be the same. In this case the laws of Virginia apply. Along with the policy of the department where he is a LEO.
 

OC for ME

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Of course is does, that is kinda the point behind calling it "castle doctrine." Even in VA, shooting someone is not the same as killing someone.
Castle Doctrines are not blank checks, and have limitations.

See above. Citing a court case where the intruder was killed does not fit the circumstance that the good deputy finds himself in. Unless the daughter has taken a turn for the worse in her treatment. Whether the circumstance of the person shot lived or died is not the point, the point is whether the shooting was legal or not. The point is whether the action is legal under the law as court precedence and the written law.

The real question is why is he on administrative leave for a off-duty incident. Desk duty?
1) Being investigated for a possible crime!
2) Possible fitness for duty eval. (how has this effected his ability to respond in the future (Psych))
Never said the "doctrine" was a blank check. But it does give the "reasonably believed" a little more latitude in application for civilians. Or, VA, has a habit of second guessing what a home owner should have reasonably believed, if this is true then VA has no castle doctrine, you have simple SD.

It seemed to be a prominent point with the judges in the cited court case, but this could be just me.

Well, cops who behave badly off the job are routinely working the next day, department policy dependent of course. Also, cop union thugs are very effective in getting cops who behaved badly back on the streets as soon as possible.

Is it a severity of the bad behavior thing with cops? "Well, at least your 'X' offense wasn't that serious, now get back out there."

Or is it a judgement thing related to the severity of 'X' offense? "Well, you demonstrated poor judgement, but the severity of the offense does not rise to the level of being really bad judgement, now get back out there."
 

Maverick9

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To Skidmark:

I've thought about your point deconstruction. 'He made those statements, not under oath, rights had not been read, inadmissible, your Honor'.

So back to square one. But I agree with many, it will not reach the point of 'being charge' under the 'He's Suffered Enough' statute. heh.
 

skidmark

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What is your source of knowledge that all his statements were made "not under oath" and prior to being Mirandaized?

I admit I have no information about what was said under either condition.

stay safe.
 

Maverick9

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What is your source of knowledge that all his statements were made "not under oath" and prior to being Mirandaized?

I admit I have no information about what was said under either condition.

stay safe.

Yeah, I'm wildly speculating. Do you imagine that someone would have read him rights? Come on? Boys in blue code not withstanding. But yah, I don't know to whom or when he said it. I'm just offering a MLS (most likely scenario) for escaping consequences by a person of authoritae.
 

Maverick9

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I can't say I often find myself defending the actions of a cop (this may be the first)... but I disagree he deserves jail time.
If I believed all my family was accounted for in their beds, and someone broke into my house and came at me in the dark I have little doubt I would shoot them.
It's a tragic accident the result of a teenager making a poor decision.

You're kind of missing the essential point. He went hunting. He exited the safety of the house and went into the garage, gun drawn, looking to shoot something.

Also there's 'broke into the house' as in door busting, window shattering, and operated the garage door (like with an opener?) and walked in and AFAIK, didn't come at him.

I would, further, recommend you operate some kind of illumination to, you know, identify your target? What if it was Bigfoot? Then you'd have the Endangered Species and EPA on your butt.

Just sayin'...
 

WalkingWolf

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I have no problems with his actions UNTIL he discharged his firearm without identifying a threat. It could have been a police officer investigating a alarm across the street.
 

OC for ME

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You're kind of missing the essential point. He went hunting. He exited the safety of the house and went into the garage, gun drawn, looking to shoot something.

Also there's 'broke into the house' as in door busting, window shattering, and operated the garage door (like with an opener?) and walked in and AFAIK, didn't come at him.

I would, further, recommend you operate some kind of illumination to, you know, identify your target? What if it was Bigfoot? Then you'd have the Endangered Species and EPA on your butt.

Just sayin'...
There is a photo of his house, and the garage is his house. Just cuz he don't sleep in it does not make it not in his house. What WW said. Rule number one, after the four safety rules, ID your target. Whether or not the shot is justified will always be determined later.
 

OC for ME

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I have no problems with his actions UNTIL he discharged his firearm without identifying a threat. It could have been a police officer investigating a alarm across the street.
Now that would be a interesting confrontation, with tragic results I'm sure, a cop coming into the garage (for what he believes is part of doing his job) sees a deputy (he may not know this) pointing a gun at him.
 

DocWalker

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Next? Guess that is me :)

Use of deadly force is not deemed appropriate based on What if...? or imagination.

If you don't know that the threat is real and immediate, then it is pure conjecture......hardly justified or excusable.

*********************************

Ah well, you see your honor, I was just eliminating the possibility that someone, whom I could not see, might be trying to hurt me :uhoh: :eek:

I was responding to someone that said you couldn't ever use deadly force on someone stealing your tv. If you feel threatened by someone holding a heavy object and threatens you with it and don't shoot then you could be dead or injured. Is there a list of acceptable object a threat must use? Is it just a gun, knife and nuclear weapon? Maybe we could add a bat....maybe a car....hmmm what about a rope?...or do I have to wait until it is tight around my neck? The statement that you couldn't shoot somone for stealing your TV is just wrong, it all depends on what the perp does with the TV is what I was getting at.

NEXT = pointing to the use of "you can't ever" shoot someone stealing from you. Why carry a gun if you don't ever know what the threat is? Why do cops carry guns if they can't guess the "what if's" of a person?

The answer is plain and simple as the cops in Las Vegas that where killed found out while having lunch. They let their guard down and didn't consider what if a couple come in here and try to kill us. I will keep my "what if's" as they keep me alive. What I won't do is make an absolute such as the person I was responding to.
 

papa bear

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How do I know he isn't picking up the TV to chuck at me...that could hurt or even kill me?


NEXT......

i guess DOC that the jury would decide that

EDIT; doc i carry a gun in case i need it. encase me or my loved ones are threatened.
a LEO carries one to shoot civilians
 
Last edited:

skidmark

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I was responding to someone that said you couldn't ever use deadly force on someone stealing your tv. If you feel threatened by someone holding a heavy object and threatens you with it and don't shoot then you could be dead or injured. Is there a list of acceptable object a threat must use? Is it just a gun, knife and nuclear weapon? Maybe we could add a bat....maybe a car....hmmm what about a rope?...or do I have to wait until it is tight around my neck? The statement that you couldn't shoot somone for stealing your TV is just wrong, it all depends on what the perp does with the TV is what I was getting at.

NEXT = pointing to the use of "you can't ever" shoot someone stealing from you. Why carry a gun if you don't ever know what the threat is? Why do cops carry guns if they can't guess the "what if's" of a person?

The answer is plain and simple as the cops in Las Vegas that where killed found out while having lunch. They let their guard down and didn't consider what if a couple come in here and try to kill us. I will keep my "what if's" as they keep me alive. What I won't do is make an absolute such as the person I was responding to.

Again - the fictitious "reasonable man" must perceive not merely a threat but an iminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. We have already been instructed in the difference between "imminent" and "immediate".

As for it being OK to shoot someone who was stealing your TV depending on what they were doing with that TV - you are mixing apples and oranges. Your what-if has turned the TV from an object of property into a weapon, thus the person is no longer stealing your TV but is assaulting you.

While often presumed to be so, not every breach of the walls of your castle in the nighttime can be assumed under Common Law to be a threat to the safety of your person.

We now get to discuss whether or not the daughter had "leave or let" to enter the house (including the garage structure) as opposed to committing trespass or robbery or burglary. I believe the ball is once again in your court.

stay safe.
 
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