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Thread: Demilitarization of police could be a new reality

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Demilitarization of police could be a new reality

    No matter where you stand on the issues surrounding the shooting of an unarmed teen in Ferguson, MO, I think most will agree that the militarization of the police has gone too far. That being said, I don't often agree with Democrat representatives, but in this case I do; whole heatedly.

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    When SHTF ... you know where to get equipment ... militarizing police? They cannot keep the equipment from people who want to get it ... they'll run away to hide under their beds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    ...I think most will agree that the militarization of the police has gone too far.
    I certainly agree.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    On several forums I visit I'm hearing calls to disarm the police.

    They need to reduce the reasons for calling them in (getting rid of: no-knocks, drugwar, quotas, mimicking the military, joining in on military training, upping their tactics (ABC armed agents)).

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    As a 28 year NAVY veteran, I resent the ones going around with "Homeland Security" on their backs. I am homeland security, not some LEO platoon sergeant wannabe. I and my fellow veterans were trained in "securing" the homeland. Leave the the national's security to the grown ups.

    The LEO's job is to protect and serve, not to don flak jackets and ride around in an armored vehicle with a 50 cal like he is Patton taking Germany. I want them arresting the bad guys, not acting like an eviction notice requires an armored troop carrier and automatic weapons.

    Since 9/11, our glorious leaders have begin to think law abiding Americans are more dangerous to " homeland security" than the hordes coming across the borders.

    It has to stop and we all need to let them know it.

    NAVYBLUE

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Navyblue, I agree on almost everything you've said, but one point that America needs to be clear on. If is not the job of Law Enforcement to protect. Their job is simple. Investigate crimes, arrest offenders and to assist prosecutors in obtaining convictions. I say this because our protection is our responsibility first. If law enforcement can assist, we accept. But we can not do as we have done for the past forty years, and that is to rely solely on law enforcement for protection. In a crisis, people need to first protect themselves, then when their safety is reasonably secured, contact law enforcement.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Navyblue, I agree on almost everything you've said, but one point that America needs to be clear on. If is not the job of Law Enforcement to protect. Their job is simple. Investigate crimes, arrest offenders and to assist prosecutors in obtaining convictions. I say this because our protection is our responsibility first. If law enforcement can assist, we accept. But we can not do as we have done for the past forty years, and that is to rely solely on law enforcement for protection. In a crisis, people need to first protect themselves, then when their safety is reasonably secured, contact law enforcement.
    Indeed. The reliance on police is part and parcel of the (stated, or unstated) "law and order" mentality. And this mentality is, at the very least, a sine qua non for the militarization of police.


    • Don't like your neighbor's loud music? Call the police!
    • Smell pot smoke in your neighborhood? Call the police!
    • You get in a scuffle? Call the police!
    • Worried about home safety? Call the police!
    • Worried about gun violence and drug use? More laws and more police (gun control, drug prohibition) can solve that, too!



    Well, with such a vast mandate, it's no wonder that "law enforcement" is a major facet of American life, consuming millions of lives and billions of dollars, and distorting every action we take and thus the very fabric of our liberty.

    I say, screw that. The job of police is to investigate crime (you know, the kind with tangible victims), and catch actual criminals. The rest of us should do our best to live and let live, stand our ground where we must, and involve the law as last resort.

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    Protect and serve? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE View Post
    The LEO's job is to protect and serve....NAVYBLUE
    Since they have no duty to protect, per numerous SCOTUS decisions, and they don't really serve anyone except the government, LE, as a whole, needs to adopt a new slogan.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yVL4BuimpE...former+cop.jpg

    Maybe that's too harsh.

    Or maybe, now, the average law enforcer, whom they have their entire life tied up in becoming a peace officer, once they found the reality was not what they thought it was (like me) find it hard to get out of such a career path that has few other alternatives, without retraining and reeducating completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Custodian View Post
    Or maybe, now, the average law enforcer, whom they have their entire life tied up in becoming a peace officer, once they found the reality was not what they thought it was (like me) find it hard to get out of such a career path that has few other alternatives, without retraining and reeducating completely.
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    Agreed.
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    Other than the motif, and lots of sand in the background, not much difference, no?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    In a land, far far away, I was a deputy sheriff. I was not able to protect anybody.

    Now, in my dealings with law enforcement, they take a report and do nothing else. Again there is no protection offered or given.
    Hoka hey

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I'm sure every cop would love to have a list a mile long of the crimes they have prevented to put on their resume, it is simply impossible for them to respond in a timely fashion to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    In a land, far far away, I was a deputy sheriff. I was not able to protect anybody.

    Now, in my dealings with law enforcement, they take a report and do nothing else. Again there is no protection offered or given.
    Just because you failed doesn't mean everyone else does.

    While I agree majority is report taking that does not equate to "no protection offered or given". If that was your motto then sucks to be the residence of that town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FallonJeeper View Post
    In a land, far far away, I was a deputy sheriff. I was not able to protect anybody.

    Now, in my dealings with law enforcement, they take a report and do nothing else. Again there is no protection offered or given.
    Occasionally a cop gets lucky but that is far from the norm no matter how much the statists claim it is. And luck is all it is, that luck can be increased by trying to be in high crime areas, but the high crime areas are statist controlled causing the problem in the first place.

    People who count on police to protect them are potential victims. Police that claim they are protecting them are liars.
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    The Police are distinctly aware of their shortcomings, It is visible in their "Bait car" stings, Hooker stings, jaywalking stings, where they manufacture criminals out of people otherwise doing something else. In our state (will provide cite if requested) it is illegal to leave the keys in a car unattended... The cops break the law to catch lawbreakers. It is laughable.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    ...
    I say, screw that. The job of police is to investigate crime (you know, the kind with tangible victims), and catch actual criminals. The rest of us should do our best to live and let live, stand our ground where we must, and involve the law as last resort.
    Marshaul, did you know that the precursor to Scotland Yard (the MET) was formed in 1829 but did NOT have the "legal" ability to investigate crime? The citizens were so worried about the "police" being used negatively against them, they set it up like this to be low key and acceptable. (saw it on a docu about Scotland Yard).

    After a short while they did create a secret arm that would investigate crime, and then later the whole department was arrested for being complicit in crime (a danger for all LE, imo, because being so close to crime, learning to understand and even mimic criminals, LE starts to become like them).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    ...The cops break the law to catch lawbreakers. It is laughable.
    Or, do they have special administrative permission to "violate" the law because their intentions are noble?

    Remember, cops in many states are exempt from many "minor laws," mostly traffic, because they "breaking" them would hinder the proper performance of their duties. Like cell phone use, laptop computer use, all while driving.

    At the very least, when confronted with their violation, they may claim the "LEO exemption" whether it can be legitimately claimed or not.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Marshaul, did you know that the precursor to Scotland Yard (the MET) was formed in 1829 but did NOT have the "legal" ability to investigate crime? The citizens were so worried about the "police" being used negatively against them, they set it up like this to be low key and acceptable. (saw it on a docu about Scotland Yard).
    Can't say I did know that. What were they used for, then? Foot patrols?

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    I have been thinking carefully about how to craft a response to this topic.

    I don't feel that the gear that the police have, from M-16s to Apache Longbow attach helicopters, matters all that much. Indeed, if my next door neighbor drives an M1A2 Abrams with live ammo for it's turret I wouldn't be bothered. As long as they want the gear, I don't have an issue.

    Their behavior matters a lot. I bothers me that LEOs come across more as an occupation force than a member of the community. They should have the same kind of relationship with the populous that fire departments have. I am uncomfortable around police because of so many bad contacts so many people have with them. That is truly horrifying.

    As a segment of society, they seem to more and more isolate themselves from the rest of us. Even in smaller communities, it's rare for people to know their local officers.
    What sort of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi View Post
    I have been thinking carefully about how to craft a response to this topic.

    I don't feel that the gear that the police have, from M-16s to Apache Longbow attach helicopters, matters all that much. Indeed, if my next door neighbor drives an M1A2 Abrams with live ammo for it's turret I wouldn't be bothered. As long as they want the gear, I don't have an issue.
    The difference is your neighbor has to spend his own money to uselessly fly his helicopter repeatedly over your sub-suburban home. The police get to spend your money to do that.

    (Speak of the devil! Right as I wrote that the local PD uselessly flew a helicopter below the civilian floor over my house, disrupting my quiet enjoyment of my own property for "important" police money-wasting business... What a bunch of self-important, inconsiderate scumbags. They should all be fired and their helicopters auctioned off.)

    Anyway, I truly don't see how you can cleanly and conveniently separate attitudes, budgets, and yes, equipment when the changes in all of the above are part and parcel of an explicit and intentional militarization of police in the name of fighting various "Wars".

    Are you aware of the extent to which the Federal government provides free equipment (but no maintenance costs for the same), thus incentivizing departments around the country to increasingly engage in unconstitutional asset forfeiture practices, and to call out the SWAT routinely and needlessly for the sole purpose of justifying its existence on paper (and because the officers find it "better than sex")?

    The reality is that police don't need this equipment, and their desires ("as long as they want the gear...") are irrelevant; only the desires of their employers - the citizenry - ought to be of any concern.
    Last edited by marshaul; 08-20-2014 at 03:54 PM.

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    To All,

    Thanks for your inputs on my statement, but let me put "protect and serve" in perspective as a 66 year old who grew up in a coal mining town and surrounding suburbia.

    There is a theory called "The Broken Window theory". The link is below and worth reading for those who want to maybe stop a juvenile from turning into the next criminal. Mayor Giuliani, former mayor of New City from 1994-2001 is a student of this theory.

    In this theory the precept is if you stop a youngster at the breaking windows for fun stage in their life, there is a good chance you could possibly stop a future criminal. As head NAVY recruiter for NYC, Long Island and New jersey from 1990-1993 and a tour in Earle, New Jersey 1993-1995, I saw first hand what happens when you tell kids your not going to go around busting windows, panhandlers aren't going to go around harassing commuters for money, window cleaners aren't going to harass commuters for money after cleaning their windows without permission. It when on and on and on with the cops stopping law abiding citizens from being harassed and intimidated by street thugs and he took a lot of cops from cars and put them om beats. It greatly improved the quality of life in the area and cops spent more time stopping crime than writing after action reports. Of course, Mayor Dinkens (liberal) stopped it and NYC is now it is a scumbags heaven.

    That being said, that is the "protect and serve" I grew up with. The local cop stopped me and my friends from escalating our mischief to the point of embarrassing our families and ending up in county jail. Nowadays the ACLU would sue the P.D.

    Here is the link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

    And again to the police. If you want to play soldier, put on your jockstrap and big boy pants, join the Army or Marines and get back to me about how tough you are.

    NAVYBLUE

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    I had to think on this broken window theory for a while, so, pardon the lengthy delay. What if I told my kid to break my window because I am going to replace it and a cop only sees (knows) what he sees? The cop approaches my kid and is told that my dad said it was OK. What does the cop do then? Say OK and then walk away? Likely not.

    If we seek both sides of the story in the search for the facts then the broken window theory is fundamentally flawed. Just cuz it works most of the time, by dumb luck, does not mean that it is a good policy.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I had to think on this broken window theory for a while, so, pardon the lengthy delay. What if I told my kid to break my window because I am going to replace it and a cop only sees (knows) what he sees? The cop approaches my kid and is told that my dad said it was OK. What does the cop do then? Say OK and then walk away? Likely not.

    If we seek both sides of the story in the search for the facts then the broken window theory is fundamentally flawed. Just cuz it works most of the time, by dumb luck, does not mean that it is a good policy.
    Good question.

    I see breaking property, especially property that can be used to gain entry, as RAS of a crime. "My daddy said to" now becomes an affirmative defense, and I have little problem with the boy being detained while it is sorted out. A parent should realize that he is asking his kid to do something suspicious and should be there to handle it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Good question.

    I see breaking property, especially property that can be used to gain entry, as RAS of a crime. "My daddy said to" now becomes an affirmative defense, and I have little problem with the boy being detained while it is sorted out. A parent should realize that he is asking his kid to do something suspicious and should be there to handle it.
    In Mo the kid must inject a claim of right, RSMo 569.130.

    RSMo 569.100 and 569.120 are property damage statutes.

    So:

    Cop: Hey kid stop that!
    Kid: Buzz of copper, it is my window!
    Cop: Prove it you little snot nosed thug.
    Kid: I don't have to, I claimed the right you illiterate jack-booted thug. Read the law 569.130.
    Cop: Oh yeah! well, how about I take you down town you little punk.
    Kid: Oh yeah! You go ahead and try, I double dog dare ya.
    Cop: OK, have it your way.
    Dad: He ain't broke that window yet! Kid never does what I tell him to, always mouthing off. You can keep him a day or two.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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