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Thread: Got "gunbuster" blocked at the Franklin-Southampton County Fair yesterday, email sent

  1. #1
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Got "gunbuster" blocked at the Franklin-Southampton County Fair yesterday, email sent

    Here's my email to VCDL and the Fair's "Contact Us" page:

    This is a request for the Franklin-Southampton County Foundation to rescind it's prohibition of lawfully carried firearms at the Fairgrounds. The Isle of Wight County Fair has no such prohibition, nor to my knowledge do any other local fairs, for a particular reason that I will address below.

    Yesterday, August 16 2014, I and my family attended the Franklin-Southampton County Fair. In advance, I checked your website and found the "Fair Rules and Regulations" at http://www.franklinsouthamptoncounty...nd-regulations. Nowhere in this document is there any mention of a "No Firearms" policy. Yet as I approached the entrance, there was a very large sign stating, "No Firearms Allowed." As I was legally carrying a firearm, I had to then return to my vehicle and store the firearm, in full view of passersby.

    This made my vehicle a target for a break-in, and potentially endangered the public with the theft of a firearm. Further, your posted policy rendered me unarmed and unable to exercise my Constitutional right to carry a firearm for self defense. I am not physically able to fight off a group of attackers nor am I bulletproof, also my wife is confined to a wheelchair and as such an attractive target for criminals. Your sign surely has little value to any criminals that might choose to ignore the prohibition.

    I am aware that, just like all public access venues, your fair is not immune from violence. Just last year a man assaulted EMS volunteers who were rescuing an injured child from his beating.

    Also note that per your lease agreement with Southampton County, http://www.southamptoncounty.org/pdf...Foundation.pdf, 1. The property is owned by a local political subdivision of the Commonwealth of Virginia; 2. Southampton County partially funds the Fair in the form of insurance coverage; and, 3. Southampton Count also partially funds the Fair in the form of responsibility of the water system.

    Even partial government funding of your organization arguably establishes the Fair as an affiliated arm of local government, as you are dependent on tax revenues for your operation.

    Because the fairgrounds are owned by, and partially funded by, Southampton County, the operation and rules of the Fair and Fairgrounds seem to be covered by the Code of Virginia, 15.2-915, https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+15.2-915, which prohibits any locality from establishing firearms restrictions greater than the Commonwealth's law.

    Thus, in my opinion, your prohibition of lawfully carried firearms is not only an affront to the freedom that all Virginians enjoy, but is in violation of state law.

    Please remove the signs as soon as possible. Until then neither I nor my family will be returning to the Fairgrounds, and I will be advising all of my friends, family, compatriots in the firearm rights community of this issue.

    Thank you,

    XXXXXXXXXXX
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Can't wait to see the response. Southhampton has a bigger ego that Sussex.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    IMHO - the county having leased the facility/property to the Franklin-Southampton County Fair, the Fair becomes the venue and can make the rules - just like if the rented a store from you.

    The county (lessor) is not forbiding guns. The Fair (lessee) is - it becomes their private property during the term of the lease.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-17-2014 at 07:33 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMHO - the county having leased the facility/property to the Franklin-Southampton County Fair, the Fair becomes the venue and can make the rules - just like if the rented a store from you.
    If they lease a store from me, they inher all rights which are mine to lease to them. If I am prohibited by law from doing a certain thing with my property, then so are any lessees.

    And so it is here: the county cannot transfer to the lessee rights and powers that the county does not have.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    IMHO - the county having leased the facility/property to the Franklin-Southampton County Fair, the Fair becomes the venue and can make the rules - just like if the rented a store from you.

    The county (lessor) is not forbiding guns. The Fair (lessee) is - it becomes their private property during the term of the lease.
    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    If they lease a store from me, they inher all rights which are mine to lease to them. If I am prohibited by law from doing a certain thing with my property, then so are any lessees.

    And so it is here: the county cannot transfer to the lessee rights and powers that the county does not have.
    Nope. Grapeshot is correct. This point has been discussed many time here. Any locality that owns a venue may lease it to any private entity for any lawful purpose, which give the lessee the right to do as they please, including controlling access or setting conditions for patrons to enter. The lessee's rights to control the venue aren't limited to those of the leasing authority.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Nope. Grapeshot is correct. This point has been discussed many time here. Any locality that owns a venue may lease it to any private entity for any lawful purpose, which give the lessee the right to do as they please, including controlling access or setting conditions for patrons to enter. The lessee's rights to control the venue aren't limited to those of the leasing authority.
    Frequently, the back of the ticket contains a phrase that use constitutes agreement to abide by all rules/conditions. The ticket is a contract of sorts: date/term, offer, acceptance, consideration ($), conditions of use are all part of this.

    Point of clarification: "venue" is the promoter/group putting on the event at that location, it is not the physical property itself or the actual owner of said property.

    Another example is the Richmond City Coliseum - definitely owned by a municipality who cannot restrict legal carry. A musical group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and says no guns or cameras = legal. A religious group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and restricts ticket sales to only their members = legal.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Frequently, the back of the ticket contains a phrase that use constitutes agreement to abide by all rules/conditions. The ticket is a contract of sorts: date/term, offer, acceptance, consideration ($), conditions of use are all part of this.

    Point of clarification: "venue" is the promoter/group putting on the event at that location, it is not the physical property itself or the actual owner of said property.

    Another example is the Richmond City Coliseum - definitely owned by a municipality who cannot restrict legal carry. A musical group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and says no guns or cameras = legal. A religious group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and restricts ticket sales to only their members = legal.
    Don't know where you got this definition of "venue", but it isn't found in Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venue
    They define "venue" as noun : the place where an event takes place.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 08-18-2014 at 05:33 PM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  8. #8
    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Not advocating breaking any laws, but in the presence of such a sign, why not treat it as a 'request'?

    If no metal detecting equipment or LEOs searching people, you can bet people walked in, oblivious, conceal carrying. Now, it's anathema for one to suggest on an OC forum that a person CC, but it's a sight better than to put in in your car under the seat, I'd think.

    Also, unless the sign says 'pursuant to...and quotes a rule or a law or something', or threatens trespass arrest, again, why not just treat it as a request.

    Of course, you could just not go there.

    FWIW/IANAL

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Frequently, the back of the ticket contains a phrase that use constitutes agreement to abide by all rules/conditions. The ticket is a contract of sorts: date/term, offer, acceptance, consideration ($), conditions of use are all part of this.

    Point of clarification: "venue" is the promoter/group putting on the event at that location, it is not the physical property itself or the actual owner of said property.

    Another example is the Richmond City Coliseum - definitely owned by a municipality who cannot restrict legal carry. A musical group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and says no guns or cameras = legal. A religious group (the venue) leases the Coliseum and restricts ticket sales to only their members = legal.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Don't know where you got this definition of "venue", but it isn't found in Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venue
    They define "venue" as noun : the place where an event takes place.
    I realize that my use of "venue" stretches the meaning of noun verbs. The point being to make a distinction between the actual owner of the public property and the one(s) with leasehold control - the physical property being the same.

    "......courts have concluded that the actions of private parties that leased government property generally were not attributable to the state....."
    http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%...09-Greason.pdf
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Here's my email to VCDL and the Fair's "Contact Us" page:

    This is a request for the Franklin-Southampton County Foundation to rescind it's prohibition of lawfully carried firearms at the Fairgrounds. The Isle of Wight County Fair has no such prohibition, nor to my knowledge do any other local fairs, for a particular reason that I will address below.

    Yesterday, August 16 2014, I and my family attended the Franklin-Southampton County Fair. In advance, I checked your website and found the "Fair Rules and Regulations" at http://www.franklinsouthamptoncounty...nd-regulations. Nowhere in this document is there any mention of a "No Firearms" policy. Yet as I approached the entrance, there was a very large sign stating, "No Firearms Allowed." As I was legally carrying a firearm, I had to then return to my vehicle and store the firearm, in full view of passersby.

    This made my vehicle a target for a break-in, and potentially endangered the public with the theft of a firearm. Further, your posted policy rendered me unarmed and unable to exercise my Constitutional right to carry a firearm for self defense. I am not physically able to fight off a group of attackers nor am I bulletproof, also my wife is confined to a wheelchair and as such an attractive target for criminals. Your sign surely has little value to any criminals that might choose to ignore the prohibition.


    I am aware that, just like all public access venues, your fair is not immune from violence. Just last year a man assaulted EMS volunteers who were rescuing an injured child from his beating.

    Also note that per your lease agreement with Southampton County, http://www.southamptoncounty.org/pdf...Foundation.pdf, 1. The property is owned by a local political subdivision of the Commonwealth of Virginia; 2. Southampton County partially funds the Fair in the form of insurance coverage; and, 3. Southampton Count also partially funds the Fair in the form of responsibility of the water system.

    Even partial government funding of your organization arguably establishes the Fair as an affiliated arm of local government, as you are dependent on tax revenues for your operation.

    Because the fairgrounds are owned by, and partially funded by, Southampton County, the operation and rules of the Fair and Fairgrounds seem to be covered by the Code of Virginia, 15.2-915, https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...0+cod+15.2-915, which prohibits any locality from establishing firearms restrictions greater than the Commonwealth's law.

    Thus, in my opinion, your prohibition of lawfully carried firearms is not only an affront to the freedom that all Virginians enjoy, but is in violation of state law.

    Please remove the signs as soon as possible. Until then neither I nor my family will be returning to the Fairgrounds, and I will be advising all of my friends, family, compatriots in the firearm rights community of this issue.

    Thank you,

    XXXXXXXXXXX
    Gee, thanks for throwing us in Isle of Wight County under the bus! Now, THEY will put up such a sign, too, since you shined a light on their fair not being a being a "unarmed victim zone!"
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

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