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Thread: Cincinnati WEBN fireworks, No Weapons

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Cincinnati WEBN fireworks, No Weapons

    Cincinnati WEBN fireworks, No Weapons.

    According to WEBN's website one of the prohibited Items at the fireworks celebration is Weapons.
    http://www.webn.com/articles/2014-ci...-faq-12501589/

    The problem is the celebration is being held at Cincinnati public parks. WEBN said that the Cincinnati police told them weapons would not be allowed. But, the contract that the radio station signed with the Cincinnati Park Board states:
    This Agreement is subject to and Contractor shall comply with all statutes, ordinances, regulations, and rules of the Federal Government, the State of Ohio, the County of Hamilton, the City of Cincinnati, and the Cincinnati Park Board, the terms and conditions of the Central Riverfront Permit Application, and the City of Cincinnati Special Permit Application.
    We all know that the Ohio Revised Code at section 9.68 makes clear that only the state can regulate the carry of firearms. And Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc. v. Clyde, 120 Ohio St.3d 96, 2008-Ohio-4605, makes clear the right to carry in public parks.

    The wheels are turning to resolve this issue before the August 31, 2014.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    It's interesting that you should post about this... Earlier this year, the son of the Hamilton County Prosecutor (where Cincinnati is located) was brutally attacked at a bus stop following the "Taste of Cincinnati". I didn't attend, but I looked at the website for the event and saw that weapons/firearms were prohibited.

    Since the fireworks are coming up next week, this morning I decided to follow up with regard to the "rules" for WEBN Fireworks/Riverfest. I found a different page than you did (http://tinyurl.com/mve95m3), but sure enough, "Weapons of any type" are purportedly prohibited. I called around and found a "Specialist" in the special events section of the Cincinnati Police Department (CPD) who told me that a) yes, firearms were prohibited, and b) that since WEBN was renting the parks, they could do what they wanted.

    It was clear between he and I that the law department would need to be my next point of contact.

    Following up on communications I had with the law department earlier this year after the ToC event, I wrote back to the woman who had provided me with information, only to find that she was no longer worked there. So... I wrote to the City Solicitor and the Chief Prosecutor for Cincinnati. I put them on notice of my intention to carry at the event (much like I'd previously done for the Open Carry/Firearm Education walks at the University of Cincinnati and The Ohio State University) and asked them if there would be any attempt to cite me or remove me from the event for carrying a firearm.

    We shall see.

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    This seems to come up every year but I've yet to see a copy of the "rental" agreement between Cincinnati and Clear Channel. Not sure such a document even exists.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    This seems to come up every year but I've yet to see a copy of the "rental" agreement between Cincinnati and Clear Channel. Not sure such a document even exists.
    Oh, it exists!

    if I could remember how to post such things, I'd post it here. In the meanwhile, check your e-mail.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Oh, it exists!

    if I could remember how to post such things, I'd post it here. In the meanwhile, check your e-mail.
    The file is to big to post.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    my old home state. Well I don't think it's an issue as the prohibition is illegal and can't be enforced. Also can't be thrown out of a public park for breaking an illegal rule and if the attempt is made one is legally allowed to defend themselves from any attacks on their person.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    my old home state. Well I don't think it's an issue as the prohibition is illegal and can't be enforced. Also can't be thrown out of a public park for breaking an illegal rule and if the attempt is made one is legally allowed to defend themselves from any attacks on their person.
    Trying to stop a miscarriage of justice. Trying to stop stupid cops from doing stupid things even though they know the law and have been properly informed of the law and informed of the policy.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Trying to stop a miscarriage of justice. Trying to stop stupid cops from doing stupid things even though they know the law and have been properly informed of the law and informed of the policy.
    Eventually they'll learn if you hammer it into them enough. I mean even animals can learn tricks so LEOs have to learn eventually.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member RCall's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post

    Following up on communications I had with the law department earlier this year after the ToC event, I wrote back to the woman who had provided me with information, only to find that she was no longer worked there. So... I wrote to the City Solicitor and the Chief Prosecutor for Cincinnati. I put them on notice of my intention to carry at the event (much like I'd previously done for the Open Carry/Firearm Education walks at the University of Cincinnati and The Ohio State University) and asked them if there would be any attempt to cite me or remove me from the event for carrying a firearm.

    We shall see.
    F.Y.I. this years theme is Retro 80's. Sooooooooo, maybe you should consider that when choosing what your going to carry that evening.
    Last edited by RCall; 08-18-2014 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Grammer

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    BB62, ask our friend gutshot how they dealt with this in Kentucky a few years back. As I recall, Louisville has a similar fireworks festival on public property along the Ohio River, a couple of weeks before the Kentucky Derby. According to discussions from back then, the private entity that threw the shindig had similar rules against carry during the event, until gun rights advocates down there made them remove those prohibitions per statewide pre-emption laws.

    Hopefully we can use ORC 9.68 in the same fashion, although I don't know if it has enough "teeth" to cut into these silly "rental agreements".

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    BB62, ask our friend gutshot how they dealt with this in Kentucky a few years back. As I recall, Louisville has a similar fireworks festival on public property along the Ohio River, a couple of weeks before the Kentucky Derby. According to discussions from back then, the private entity that threw the shindig had similar rules against carry during the event, until gun rights advocates down there made them remove those prohibitions per statewide pre-emption laws.

    Hopefully we can use ORC 9.68 in the same fashion, although I don't know if it has enough "teeth" to cut into these silly "rental agreements".
    Yes, gutshot is a good and knowledgeable friend, and yes, KY's preemption is far superior to Ohio's, but I think 9.68 will suffice because the rental agreement is an albatross for the city.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Today, since I have gotten no response to my first notice, and in order that dismiss the claim that "Our spam filter ate your e-mail!", I and a witness hand-delivered a second notice to the recipients of my first e-mail on the subject: Cincinnati's Solicitor, Chief Prosecutor, and Chief of Police. The notice repeated my intention to carry, open and/or concealed, one or more firearms in and around the event locations of Riverfest/WEBN Fireworks.

    The fact that I have gotten no response to my first notice, which was verified as received says to me that either a) the powers that be are scrambling to come up with some way to legally stop such an act, or b) they realize that they have no legal way to do such a thing and think that I will be deterred by their silence. Riiiiiiight.

    If anyone else would like to join me at the event, please post here or drop me a PM.



    P.S. - Earlier I mentioned attacks at the Taste of Cincinnati earlier this year, where a similar illegal prohibition on weapons was also advertised. Here's a link to the story of one of those attacks: http://tinyurl.com/kfca2lq or for those who like the long version: http://www.wlwt.com/news/witness-att...235556#!bIbNsL
    Last edited by BB62; 08-22-2014 at 11:59 AM. Reason: revised story link

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Today, since I have gotten no response to my first notice, and in order that dismiss the claim that "Our spam filter ate your e-mail!", I and a witness hand-delivered a second notice to the recipients of my first e-mail on the subject: Cincinnati's Solicitor, Chief Prosecutor, and Chief of Police. The notice repeated my intention to carry, open and/or concealed, one or more firearms in and around the event locations of Riverfest/WEBN Fireworks.

    The fact that I have gotten no response to my first notice, which was verified as received says to me that either a) the powers that be are scrambling to come up with some way to legally stop such an act, or b) they realize that they have no legal way to do such a thing and think that I will be deterred by their silence. Riiiiiiight.

    If anyone else would like to join me at the event, please post here or drop me a PM.



    P.S. - Earlier I mentioned attacks at the Taste of Cincinnati earlier this year, where a similar illegal prohibition on weapons was also advertised. Here's a link to the story of those attacks: http://tinyurl.com/pnhe83g or for those who like the long version: http://www.wlwt.com/news/hamilton-co...218816#!bHN172
    I wonder if you can file for a declaratory ruling ? Somewhere ...

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    It appears that notice has been given. The city will have a tough time denying they didn't know that someone was going to carry into the park. I can tell you the agreements, contract and application does not mention one word about weapons. The application clearly said no alcohol at the event. Of course no alcohol because park rules prohibits alcohol in the parks.

    Give it a day and lets see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Today, since I have gotten no response to my first notice, and in order that dismiss the claim that "Our spam filter ate your e-mail!", I and a witness hand-delivered a second notice to the recipients of my first e-mail on the subject: Cincinnati's Solicitor, Chief Prosecutor, and Chief of Police. The notice repeated my intention to carry, open and/or concealed, one or more firearms in and around the event locations of Riverfest/WEBN Fireworks.

    The fact that I have gotten no response to my first notice, which was verified as received says to me that either a) the powers that be are scrambling to come up with some way to legally stop such an act, or b) they realize that they have no legal way to do such a thing and think that I will be deterred by their silence. Riiiiiiight.

    If anyone else would like to join me at the event, please post here or drop me a PM.



    P.S. - Earlier I mentioned attacks at the Taste of Cincinnati earlier this year, where a similar illegal prohibition on weapons was also advertised. Here's a link to the story of one of those attacks: http://tinyurl.com/kfca2lq or for those who like the long version: http://www.wlwt.com/news/witness-att...235556#!bIbNsL

    I'll be there somewhere. Where are you meeting and at what time?


    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by ps1mhd View Post
    I'll be there somewhere. Where are you meeting and at what time?
    Good, a patriot steps up! I haven't finalized that location yet, but will PM you when I do.

    Thank you!

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    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    If they have a written agreement, doesn't R.C.2923.126(C)(3)(a) apply?

    (a)... a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises.

    Or will the agreement not be considered a "lease"?
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWifeSaidYes View Post
    If they have a written agreement, doesn't R.C.2923.126(C)(3)(a) apply?

    Or will the agreement not be considered a "lease"?
    They wish! Someone undoubtedly be along shortly to address your question fully. In the meanwhile, see the next post.

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    At this point I have given notice to CPD, the Cincinnati Law Department, the Hamilton County Prosecutor and the Hamilton County Sheriff of my intention to carry one or more firearms, openly and/or concealed, at and during the event. Upon further consideration, it's become clear to me that the City of Cincinnati, or at least those in positions of influence in the Cincinnati Police Department (and apparently aided by the Law Department) have decided to engage in a game of legal "chicken".

    They expect me and others to be cowed by their non-responsiveness - their silence. The problem for them is the legal doctrines of "silence is consent and "admission by silence".

    The next step is to do what I have just done - post an event to Facebook inviting legally armed people (SIDEARMS only, please) to join me at the WEBN Fireworks, aka "Riverfest". The event can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/events/605792739533573

    This is not the end of my attempts to persuade those in positions of authority and influence to do something other than what they've already done: to make it appear by website postings, by signs at event entrances, and by the presence of police officers at the gates, that they have the legal right to promulgate or enforce illegal rules.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    I imagine some old geezer will be along to put a finer point on it, but here is a question that was posted on the Facebook event page, and my answer to it:

    Question: Help me out here. I thought WEBN rented/leased the space which would make their prohibition legal. Am I wrong on this count?

    Answer: Glad to help you Mike. WEBN has neither rented nor leased the space. They have use of it under multiple conditions and because they have an approved "Special Use Permit".

    One of the conditions in the of agreement (section 1A) between WEBN and the city is that "The event shall be gated but must be **free and open to the general public**" (my asterisks) - so it's a PUBLIC event, not a private event.

    At a private event, WEBN could impose various restrictions upon quantity, identity and behavior of the people attending - but this is a PUBLIC event.

    Another condition of the agreement is in section 8 of the agreement, entitled "Compliance with laws and policies". That part says "...Contractor shall comply with all statutes, ordinances, regulations and rules of the Federal Government, the State of Ohio, the County of Hamilton, the City of Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Park Board, the terms and conditions of the Central Riverfront Permit Application and the City of Cincinnati Special Permit Application".

    So WEBN has to comply with various laws, including ORC 9.68, and 9.68 as well as at least two Ohio Supreme Court cases make it clear that public parks, when open to the PUBLIC, are places where one who can legally possess a firearm can carry.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    .....One of the conditions in the of agreement (section 1A) between WEBN and the city is that "The event shall be gated but must be **free and open to the general public**" (my asterisks) - so it's a PUBLIC event, not a private event.

    At a private event, WEBN could impose various restrictions upon quantity, identity and behavior of the people attending - but this is a PUBLIC event.

    Another condition of the agreement is in section 8 of the agreement, entitled "Compliance with laws and policies". That part says "...Contractor shall comply with all statutes, ordinances, regulations and rules of the Federal Government, the State of Ohio, the County of Hamilton, the City of Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Park Board, the terms and conditions of the Central Riverfront Permit Application and the City of Cincinnati Special Permit Application".

    So WEBN has to comply with various laws, including ORC 9.68, and 9.68 as well as at least two Ohio Supreme Court cases make it clear that public parks, when open to the PUBLIC, are places where one who can legally possess a firearm can carry.
    So in fact to trespass a person for excising a right would be totally illegal and of course the firearms restriction they think they can impose is nullified. Carry at will and be prepared to cite state law if confronted and harassed.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rightwinglibertarian View Post
    So in fact to trespass a person for excising a right would be totally illegal and of course the firearms restriction they think they can impose is nullified. Carry at will and be prepared to cite state law if confronted and harassed.
    The dirty part is the cops arrest you. You sit in jail till Tuesday. In court the charges are dismissed. So, are you going to sue?????

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    These are the "Park Board Rules."
    park_board_rules.pdf
    Rule 10 complies with state law. The carrying of guns is permitted.

    Rule 29 is titled "Special Use Permits for Events and Structures." Part 6 says:
    The applicant agrees to comply with all park board rules and regulations and the terms of the permit.
    The rules makes it clear that WEBN or the City cannot prohibit the carrying of firearms.
    Last edited by color of law; 08-23-2014 at 08:44 PM.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    The dirty part is the cops arrest you. You sit in jail till Tuesday. In court the charges are dismissed. So, are you going to sue?????
    part and parcel of being an activist. I've not been back in the US long enough yet but once i'm sorted properly you can bet I will connect with as many as possible in my state as well as membership of a major gun organisation. I would say NRA but they arent quite as dogmatic about rights as they should be apart from people such as Jan Morgan and a few others likely.

    Also if they unlawfully arrest you of course that crime will be caught on the camera I use to record the incident and I proceed to nail him to the wall for assault and kidnap. Cities start having to shell out big bucks every time they violate a right they'll soon learn. Question is who has the guts and who cares enough to do it?
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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  25. #25
    Regular Member MyWifeSaidYes's Avatar
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    Here are some Riverfest related documents if anyone is interested:

    Riverfest-Contract-2012.pdf
    http://www.ohionets.com/stuff/city-c...tract-2012.pdf

    Riverfest-special-event-permit-2013.pdf
    http://www.ohionets.com/stuff/city-c...ermit-2013.pdf

    Riverfest-Reservation-Form-2014.pdf
    http://www.ohionets.com/stuff/city-c...-Form-2014.pdf
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    What does a caring, sensitive person feel when they are forced to use a handgun to stop a threat?

    Recoil.

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