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Thread: If this were REALLY the "Wild West..."

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    If this were REALLY the "Wild West..."

    Dear Megyn Kelly: The "wild west" was NEVER this way for one simple reason: EVERYONE was armed. On the rare occasion someone tried to get away with something, they either surrendered at gunpoint or were sent to meet their maker. If this were indeed the "wild west," it's not that less than 1% of the looters would have gotten away with it. It's that 99% of them never would have tried in the first place, knowing that honest, law-abiding citizens were standing at the ready, protection their property from looting.

    "Deterrence is the ultimate value of an armed society. It is indeed the very reason why the Japanese decided against trying to invade mainland USA during World War II: "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Isoroku Yamamoto

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    Faux-quotations are almost always without context unread by the poster.


    You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
    It has been declared this attribution is "unsubstantiated and almost certainly bogus, even though it has been repeated thousands of times in various Internet postings. There is no record of the commander in chief of Japanís wartime fleet ever saying it.", according to Brooks Jackson in "Misquoting Yamamoto" at Factcheck.org (11 May 2009), which cites Donald M. Goldstein, sometimes called "the dean of Pearl Harbor historians", writing "I have never seen it in writing. It has been attributed to the Prange files [the files of the late Gordon W. Prange, chief historian on the staff of Gen. Douglas MacArthur]." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yamamoto,_Isoroku
    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    There is video of citizens guarding their business with sport rifles and pistols (in hand) and that business was not looted.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews...rs-in-ferguson

    http://mrconservative.com/2014/08/47...ssouri-blacks/

    Yeah, I know, a tattoo joint, but it is their business and they have a right to defend it. It has not been reported that the cops interfered with them and their efforts to defend their business. The cops know lawful use of firearms in MO when they see it. Context is everything.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Faux-quotations are almost always without context unread by the poster.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/
    Well, someone said it and thus it is quotable and has been "quoted." I certainly did not state it first and it is very quotable, I like the sentiment behind the words.

    I would rather subscribe a "false attribution" rather than a "bogus quote."

    Prof. Goldstein should know the difference, he is a professor after all.

    "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Then don't call it a quote or mark it as a quote. Take credit for ones own malapropisms, rather that wrap it in false authority. It's kind'a like a cop instructing US on the law.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    You can cross your arms and stomp your foot but it don't change the definition of
    quote verb \ˈkwōt also ˈkōt\

    : to repeat (something written or said by another person) exactly

    : to write or say the exact words of (someone)

    : to write or say a line or short section from (a piece of writing or a speech)
    And it certainly don't mean that you'll get your way.

    The only thing we know is that it is "quoted" exactly time and again.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    OH MY GOD Another Interwebz ERROR. Where's the Earth shattering Kaboom?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Faux-quotations are almost always without context unread by the poster.




    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/misquoting-yamamoto/
    You do realize that this link refers to a single undated email as evidence?

    Personally, I find the email factcheck "quotes" not entirely convincing:

    Prof. Goldstein: I have never seen it in writing. It has been attributed to the Prange files [the files of the late Gordon W. Prange, chief historian on the staff of Gen. Douglas MacArthur] but no one had ever seen it or cited it from where they got it. Some people say that it came from our work but I never said it. … As of today it is bogus until someone can cite when and where.
    Perhaps if the good professor had emailed something along the lines of:

    Prof. Goldstein: I have never seen it in writing. It has been attributed to the Prange files [the files of the late Gordon W. Prange, chief historian on the staff of Gen. Douglas MacArthur] but no one, that I am aware of, had ever seen it or cited it from where they got it. Some people say that it came from our work but I never said it. … As of today, in my classes or students' work, I will consider that this quote attributed to Yamamoto is bogus until someone can cite when and where.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 08-20-2014 at 12:21 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    You do realize that this link refers to a single undated email as evidence? Personally, I find the email factcheck "quotes" not entirely convincing:
    An assertion of non-existence cannot be sustained without examination of the entire universe of discussion. The same logic applies in our OCDO Rule (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    An assertion of non-existence cannot be sustained without examination of the entire universe of discussion. The same logic applies in our OCDO Rule (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY.
    True...quite true. However, the single point of "evidence" provided doesn't directly invalidate the quote -- meaning that without the professor asserting that he has read ALL materials related to Yamamoto, he cannot really claim non-existence either.

    Further, the professor states where the quote has been attributed (to the Prange files) and then essentially admits that he is unaware of anyone providing the exact location in Prange files where the quote can be found.

    Again, please note that the professor did not conclusively say that it was NOT present in the collection based on his own research. He also did not provide a citation to someone ELSE who had reviewed the entire collection and found no reference to this quote by Yamamoto.

    The only conclusive statement the professor gives is that HE never gave that quote -- fair enough, but NOT conclusive invalidation of the quote.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 08-20-2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason: badly grammar / android...grr
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Remember - the burden of proof is on he who assets existence. Thus, without a valid source for the quotation, it should be considered incorrect. I believe, however, it is thought to likely reflect Yamamoto's likely beliefs on the subject, even if he didn't say exactly that. (Though I am not a Yamamoto scholar).

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Also, in some instances, there is no direct translation from Nipponese and Americun.

    Anyway, it is "quoted' regularly regardless of the source. It now becomes a matter of proper attribution.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    The correct attribution is critical to the level of interest for the reader though. It is potentially much more interesting as a quote by Yamamoto than one by relatively anonymous person in the 1980s, for example. I think finding something similar by Yamamoto would be interesting.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Remember - the burden of proof is on he who assets existence. Thus, without a valid source for the quotation, it should be considered incorrect. I believe, however, it is thought to likely reflect Yamamoto's likely beliefs on the subject, even if he didn't say exactly that. (Though I am not a Yamamoto scholar).
    In this case, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion that it is incorrect. As OC has correctly noted, it is so generally cited and consistently cited as belonging to Yamamoto, that the general assumption is that it WAS Yamamoto's quote. So, in this case the one denying the citation should be the one demonstrating that it was never said by Yamamoto, or show who was likely the first to say it.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    The correct attribution is critical to the level of interest for the reader though. It is potentially much more interesting as a quote by Yamamoto than one by relatively anonymous person in the 1980s, for example. I think finding something similar by Yamamoto would be interesting.
    Perhaps in academics, but this is general use, so there is a different expectation necessarily. Nobody's life, liberty, property or reputation are at stake, so the formalities are necessarily less stringent, eh?
    Last edited by carolina guy; 08-21-2014 at 04:23 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Considering that Admiral Yamamoto was Harvard-educated and thus familiar with the United States of that time, I would not rule out his having made that statement. As has been pointed out, there is no definitive proof that he ever said, or wrote, the comment.

    He was one of the very few senior Japanese officers who was exceedingly reluctant to go to war against the United States, but, as a good officer, he carried out the orders he was given. The decision to assassinate him in the air over Bougainville was, perhaps, one of the wisest, if unfortunate, decisions of the war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    [ ... ]So, in this case the one denying the citation should be the one demonstrating that it was never said by Yamamoto, or show who was likely the first to say it.
    It is not possible to sustain an assertion of non-existence ... Only a record of all Isoroku Yamamoto ever said could demonstrate it "never said by Yamamoto."

    I have been challenged to provide a first use of the rifle behind every blade of grass mis-attributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto. On-line resources suggest that it may be in the Gordon Prange archives.

    I am a layman not familiar with searching such academic archives. Will you assist, please?

    When I challenge others mis-attributions I demand the context cited from a publicly accessible document.

    Domo arigato.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Where's the Earth shattering Kaboom?
    Marvin the Martian???

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    It is not possible to sustain an assertion of non-existence ... Only a record of all Isoroku Yamamoto ever said could demonstrate it "never said by Yamamoto."
    So...even with an expert referenced by a single source of refutation provided by you mentioning a likely source of the quote (see prior messages) you stand by your claim of non-existence based upon a lack of definitive proof of existence? Ok... (*shrug*)
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Another way to look at this - what evidence is there actually of the quoted statement being made by Yamamoto? As I understand it, there is none, other than the fact that it is often stated on the internet. There are lots of commonly held "truths" on the internet which don't bear critical examination, so that fact itself shouldn't carry much weight. OTOH, a scholar in the area says he is not aware of any actual source for the quote either. This more than outweighs the dubious evidence of an internet rumor, in my opinion.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Another way to look at this - what evidence is there actually of the quoted statement being made by Yamamoto? As I understand it, there is none, other than the fact that it is often stated on the internet. There are lots of commonly held "truths" on the internet which don't bear critical examination, so that fact itself shouldn't carry much weight. OTOH, a scholar in the area says he is not aware of any actual source for the quote either. This more than outweighs the dubious evidence of an internet rumor, in my opinion.
    Referring to message #8 above...

    Prof. Goldstein: I have never seen it in writing. It has been attributed to the Prange files [the files of the late Gordon W. Prange, chief historian on the staff of Gen. Douglas MacArthur] but no one had ever seen it or cited it from where they got it. Some people say that it came from our work but I never said it. Ö As of today it is bogus until someone can cite when and where.
    The professor mentions that it is attributed to the Prange files, and that attribution likely predates the Internet by decades.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    So to provide evidence that the quote was from Yamamoto it will be necessary to go and find a copy of the Prange files and look. Seems the professor here is a bit skeptical it will be found there.

    In any case, it doesn't seem likely the Prange files could be a primary source, since that was MacArthur's historian (possible though). Would such a person have spoken with Yamamoto? Likely better to look in primary Japanese sources.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    So to provide evidence that the quote was from Yamamoto it will be necessary to go and find a copy of the Prange files and look. Seems the professor here is a bit skeptical it will be found there.

    In any case, it doesn't seem likely the Prange files could be a primary source, since that was MacArthur's historian (possible though). Would such a person have spoken with Yamamoto? Likely better to look in primary Japanese sources.
    Might have been kinda hard to have interviewed him as his plane was shot down in 1943. ;-)

    Given that nobody has yet (that I am aware of) provided a source citation for the quote other than Yamamoto, perhaps it may be better to simply cite the quote as:

    "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - commonly attributed to Isoroku Yamamoto
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    Might have been kinda hard to have interviewed him as his plane was shot down in 1943. ;-)

    Given that nobody has yet (that I am aware of) provided a source citation for the quote other than Yamamoto, perhaps it may be better to simply cite the quote as:
    Won't work, some folks are persnickety.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Ok, let's flip the lid on this beast. You're the one NOT in the know. How do you approach those who are in the know who are approaching you?
    Last edited by since9; 08-22-2014 at 10:00 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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