Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: onus rules police shooting justified - video

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    idaho
    Posts
    760

    onus rules police shooting justified - video

    I'm not saying the shooting couldn't have been avoided, but I don't blame the cops for shooting this guy.



  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    3,277
    Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

    Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

    Regards

    CCJ
    " I detest hypocrites and their Hypocrisy" I support Liberty for each, for all, and forever".
    Ask yourself, Do you own Yourself?

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    northern wis
    Posts
    3,201
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

    Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

    Regards

    CCJ
    I didn't see the subject that was sitting on the ground any time during the video.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

  4. #4
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

    Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

    Regards

    CCJ
    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I didn't see the subject that was sitting on the ground any time during the video.
    I think my link is broken. The video I have linked the dude with the knife actively moves TOWARD the officers.

    I must be missing something...

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by countryclubjoe View Post
    Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

    Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

    Regards

    CCJ
    Uh, know cops will not do that, assisted suicide is "illegal" in MO. Cops can get in big trouble.

    Crazy dude with a knife, doing crazy things, gets shot. Tough situation, even tougher on those two cops.

    Anyway, as a side note, a friend wanted to know why the cops shoot so many times. Well, I says, cops will shoot until the threat is stopped, this ain't the movies where a single pistol bullet throws a dude back 15 feet. Shoot until the threat is on the ground. Cuffing a dead man is a little much, but hey, it ain't me out there.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  6. #6
    Regular Member TexasOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    43
    The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    433
    Quote Originally Posted by TexasOC View Post
    The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.
    The internet is your friend.... Research something called the 21 foot rule and The Tueller Rule....
    Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet

    Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

    "If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, ''Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why did you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?''"


    SO.... by waiting until the suspect is closer, The Officer could or possibly would be killed..... is that what needs to happen, the Officers need to be injured to PROVE they had no choice, but to shoot the assailant?

    The guy wanted to be shot, he told them that, he approached them with a knife, they told him to drop it, and stop.. He chose to do neither, so he got his wish. A NORMAL person would not do what he did, so he wasn't acting NORMAL... so I will use the word CRAZY.... and no matter what you do, you cant stop CRAZY.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    I thought that cops were supermen? Shooting a loon who wants to be shot does not sound very sporting.

  9. #9
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Henrico
    Posts
    2,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Richieg150 View Post
    The internet is your friend.... Research something called the 21 foot rule and The Tueller Rule....
    Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet

    Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

    "If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, ''Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why did you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?''"


    SO.... by waiting until the suspect is closer, The Officer could or possibly would be killed..... is that what needs to happen, the Officers need to be injured to PROVE they had no choice, but to shoot the assailant?

    The guy wanted to be shot, he told them that, he approached them with a knife, they told him to drop it, and stop.. He chose to do neither, so he got his wish. A NORMAL person would not do what he did, so he wasn't acting NORMAL... so I will use the word CRAZY.... and no matter what you do, you cant stop CRAZY.
    Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
    The Tueller "Rule" is the result of objective research/testing of reaction times in a defensive scenario. It is not a legal representation, not codified as such, but has been used as a defense tool in various courts very effectively.

    The Force Science Institute
    has gone far beyond the original premise on this matter. No the result/study is not limited to law enforcement.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    earth's crust
    Posts
    17,838
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
    Here Mr. Badman, hold my tape measure so I can check and see if you are 21 feet away. ???

    21 ft is just a guide too .. if you are slower than avg (and 1/2 would be) then maybe a 30 ft rule is more appropriate for you.

    I go by the 100 yard rule on my land .... (my land is only 100 yds !)

  12. #12
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SW MO
    Posts
    1,637
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Uh, know cops will not do that, assisted suicide is "illegal" in MO. Cops can get in big trouble.

    Crazy dude with a knife, doing crazy things, gets shot. Tough situation, even tougher on those two cops.

    Anyway, as a side note, a friend wanted to know why the cops shoot so many times. Well, I says, cops will shoot until the threat is stopped, this ain't the movies where a single pistol bullet throws a dude back 15 feet. Shoot until the threat is on the ground. Cuffing a dead man is a little much, but hey, it ain't me out there.
    Agree.

    I had the same conversation last night and this morning with some 'sensitive' individuals. They saw this video and also wondered why there were so many shots. I just said, there was only one John Wayne. I did follow up about about shooting until the threat is stopped. They believed a person falls back 15 feet after being shot....this video opened their eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasOC View Post
    The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.
    Do you have a link to this report?

    Regardless of the discrepancy as stated above, I don't have a lot of reservation on the officers actions.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

  13. #13
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
    Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

    I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. Here's your gat back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  14. #14
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

    I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. Here's your gat back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"
    Its brah not bro.

    The 90s called... They want their slang back.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    St Louis, Mo
    Posts
    574
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

    I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. We're keeping your gat. Good luck spending even more money to have any hope of getting it back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"

    Fixed the bolded part for ya.
    Last edited by Oramac; 08-22-2014 at 12:29 PM.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

  16. #16
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,273
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Its brah not bro.

    The 90s called... They want their slang back.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Hipsters say "brah", us hoosiers (rednecks) residing in flyover country are a little behind the times...bro.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  17. #17
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Henrico
    Posts
    2,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Its brah not bro.

    The 90s called... They want their slang back.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Actually, it's "bruh." 420 TURN UP YOLO SWAG
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    4,216
    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Actually, it's "bruh." 420 TURN UP YOLO SWAG
    Ok my bad bruh. Thanks for the education on how to sound like an a** clown.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  19. #19
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Henrico
    Posts
    2,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Ok my bad bruh. Thanks for the education on how to sound like an a** clown.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    but bruh

    So glad I don't know anyone like that.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  20. #20
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The High Plains of Wyoming
    Posts
    1,030
    In some states the 21' rule is codified. When I took the class for my Iowa CCW (1996) the deputy teaching the class explained the law and demonstrated the proper shooting stance if you were not quite sure of the distance. He assumed the Weaver stance and walked forward while pulling the trigger of his imaginary gun while saying "bang bang bang bang".

    In some (Indiana) the 21' rule is established by state supreme court president, shooting through the door if someone is trying to break in is also legal by president.

    I have the DEADLY EFFECTS on VHS and need to get it on DVD and will probably order all 3....

    http://www.projectile.com/deadlyeffects.html

    The DEADLY EFFECTS video completely debunks the "one shot stop" theory most people have. In one segment it shows a dead biker with no drugs found in his body, shot something like 27 times with 9mm and 4 times with 12ga slugs (one obviously exiting through the spine) before going down.

    Generally speaking what you knew prior to an incident can be used in your defense. If you knew beforehand the individual was a 3 time murderer and child rapist, that CAN be used in your defense, if it comes out afterward, thanks for cleaning up the street, enjoy your time with bubba.

    So if involved in a shoot and the prosecutor says "You shot him 3 times that proves your intent to murder him". You can whip out the video and (usually; if the judge isn't a rabid anti) say "ladies and gentlemen of the jury here is a video that proves I knew beforehand that handguns are unreliable in stopping a life threatening assault in just one shot."
    Last edited by F350; 08-22-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    --snipped--
    In some (Indiana) the 21' rule is established by state supreme court president........
    Established by precident (an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example) not by president (a person in leadership).
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Regular Member F350's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The High Plains of Wyoming
    Posts
    1,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Established by precident (an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example) not by president (a person in leadership).
    Damned auto correct, when I went to reply, it had your "precident" underlined in red as a misspelling. AH looked it up, is precedent, looks like we both be damned.
    Last edited by F350; 08-22-2014 at 07:33 PM.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,622
    Originally Posted by Grapeshot

    Established by precident (an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example) not by president (a person in leadership).
    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Damned auto correct, when I went to reply, it had your "precident" underlined in red as a misspelling. AH looked it up, is precedent, looks like we both be damned.
    Wouldn't be the first time
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Show Me State
    Posts
    433
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Here Mr. Badman, hold my tape measure so I can check and see if you are 21 feet away. ???

    21 ft is just a guide too .. if you are slower than avg (and 1/2 would be) then maybe a 30 ft rule is more appropriate for you.

    I go by the 100 yard rule on my land .... (my land is only 100 yds !)
    When I took my Instructors Class, we did the Tueller Drill. There were 8 in my class ,average age of the guys.. 50. There were 4 active or retired LEO's, 3 retired military, all active shooters in one discipline or another.... and me. We had a B27 target about 15 feet in front of us.

    We had our firearms holstered and when we were told , we were to draw, and fire 3 shots center mass. When we drew to fire someone behind us ran the other way and dropped a tent stake each time he heard a shot. Most shot low on 1 or missed, missed center mass or grazed on 2 and hit center mass on 3. The average distance for the shot 3 was 35 feet.... well farther that the 21. Had it been an assailant, most would have been stabbed long before getting a stopping center mass shot on target.

    Its an eye opening drill, try it, you will be surprised at the results..
    Last edited by Richieg150; 08-25-2014 at 11:04 PM. Reason: additional info.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •