• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

onus rules police shooting justified - video

onus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
699
Location
idaho
I'm not saying the shooting couldn't have been avoided, but I don't blame the cops for shooting this guy.


[video=youtube;j-P54MZVxMU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-P54MZVxMU&bpctr=1408592667[/video]
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

Regards

CCJ
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

Regards

CCJ

I didn't see the subject that was sitting on the ground any time during the video.

I think my link is broken. The video I have linked the dude with the knife actively moves TOWARD the officers.

I must be missing something...

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Suicide by cop is actual becoming much easier for a citizen these days.

Simply grab a knife, sit on the ground and ask a cop to kill you... Bingo, suicide by cop is accomplished.

Regards

CCJ
Uh, know cops will not do that, assisted suicide is "illegal" in MO. Cops can get in big trouble.

Crazy dude with a knife, doing crazy things, gets shot. Tough situation, even tougher on those two cops.

Anyway, as a side note, a friend wanted to know why the cops shoot so many times. Well, I says, cops will shoot until the threat is stopped, this ain't the movies where a single pistol bullet throws a dude back 15 feet. Shoot until the threat is on the ground. Cuffing a dead man is a little much, but hey, it ain't me out there.
 

TexasOC

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
41
Location
Texas
The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.
 

Richieg150

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
432
Location
Show Me State
The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.

The internet is your friend.... Research something called the 21 foot rule and The Tueller Rule....
Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

"If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, ''Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why did you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?''"


SO.... by waiting until the suspect is closer, The Officer could or possibly would be killed..... is that what needs to happen, the Officers need to be injured to PROVE they had no choice, but to shoot the assailant?

The guy wanted to be shot, he told them that, he approached them with a knife, they told him to drop it, and stop.. He chose to do neither, so he got his wish. A NORMAL person would not do what he did, so he wasn't acting NORMAL... so I will use the word CRAZY.... and no matter what you do, you cant stop CRAZY.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Henrico
The internet is your friend.... Research something called the 21 foot rule and The Tueller Rule....
Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

"If you shoot an edged-weapon offender before he is actually on you or at least within reaching distance, you need to anticipate being challenged on your decision by people both in and out of law enforcement who do not understand the sobering facts of action and reaction times," says FSRC National Advisory Board member Bill Everett, an attorney, use-of-force trainer and former cop. "Someone is bound to say, ''Hey, this guy was 10 feet away when he dropped and died. Why did you have to shoot him when he was so far away from you?''"


SO.... by waiting until the suspect is closer, The Officer could or possibly would be killed..... is that what needs to happen, the Officers need to be injured to PROVE they had no choice, but to shoot the assailant?

The guy wanted to be shot, he told them that, he approached them with a knife, they told him to drop it, and stop.. He chose to do neither, so he got his wish. A NORMAL person would not do what he did, so he wasn't acting NORMAL... so I will use the word CRAZY.... and no matter what you do, you cant stop CRAZY.

Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
The Tueller "Rule" is the result of objective research/testing of reaction times in a defensive scenario. It is not a legal representation, not codified as such, but has been used as a defense tool in various courts very effectively.

The Force Science Institute
has gone far beyond the original premise on this matter. No the result/study is not limited to law enforcement.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?

Here Mr. Badman, hold my tape measure so I can check and see if you are 21 feet away. ???

21 ft is just a guide too .. if you are slower than avg (and 1/2 would be) then maybe a 30 ft rule is more appropriate for you.

I go by the 100 yard rule on my land .... (my land is only 100 yds !)
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
Uh, know cops will not do that, assisted suicide is "illegal" in MO. Cops can get in big trouble.

Crazy dude with a knife, doing crazy things, gets shot. Tough situation, even tougher on those two cops.

Anyway, as a side note, a friend wanted to know why the cops shoot so many times. Well, I says, cops will shoot until the threat is stopped, this ain't the movies where a single pistol bullet throws a dude back 15 feet. Shoot until the threat is on the ground. Cuffing a dead man is a little much, but hey, it ain't me out there.
Agree.

I had the same conversation last night and this morning with some 'sensitive' individuals. They saw this video and also wondered why there were so many shots. I just said, there was only one John Wayne. :lol: I did follow up about about shooting until the threat is stopped. They believed a person falls back 15 feet after being shot....this video opened their eyes.

The police report claims that the officers shot the man because he was coming at them holding a knife in an overhand grip. It also claims that they didn't shoot until he was within 3 or 4 feet of the officers. Can anybody tell if he is actually holding a knife? I can't see one. And the idiot definitely wasn't 3 feet from the cops. Seems like yet another case of historical revisionism via police report, even if their action was justified in this case. Only a slight exaggeration, not as bad as some of the whoppers other officers have come up with.

Do you have a link to this report?

Regardless of the discrepancy as stated above, I don't have a lot of reservation on the officers actions.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Good reply, and very informative. I do have a question... Is this rule applicable to civilians as well, and can use of force be justified as such (all other variables set to LEGAL SHOOT)?
Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. Here's your gat back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. Here's your gat back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"

Its brah not bro.

The 90s called... They want their slang back. :D

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

Oramac

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
572
Location
St Louis, Mo
Is this a trick question? Or a rhetorical question?

I'll go out on a limb and state that your local prosecutor, and his view of a armed citizenry, would be crucial in the quest for a answer to the question. A cop may walk and never get anything more than some paid time off, and a civilian may be wrung through the proverbial legal wringer before getting a "Oops, our bad, you are free to go dude. We're keeping your gat. Good luck spending even more money to have any hope of getting it back. Sorry about the losing your job and life savings thing, man that sucks. Ya know how it is, right, ya know what I mean, we gotta do the right thing, just doing our job bro. We cool bro?"


Fixed the bolded part for ya.
 
Last edited:

F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
In some states the 21' rule is codified. When I took the class for my Iowa CCW (1996) the deputy teaching the class explained the law and demonstrated the proper shooting stance if you were not quite sure of the distance. He assumed the Weaver stance and walked forward while pulling the trigger of his imaginary gun while saying "bang bang bang bang".

In some (Indiana) the 21' rule is established by state supreme court president, shooting through the door if someone is trying to break in is also legal by president.

I have the DEADLY EFFECTS on VHS and need to get it on DVD and will probably order all 3....

http://www.projectile.com/deadlyeffects.html

The DEADLY EFFECTS video completely debunks the "one shot stop" theory most people have. In one segment it shows a dead biker with no drugs found in his body, shot something like 27 times with 9mm and 4 times with 12ga slugs (one obviously exiting through the spine) before going down.

Generally speaking what you knew prior to an incident can be used in your defense. If you knew beforehand the individual was a 3 time murderer and child rapist, that CAN be used in your defense, if it comes out afterward, thanks for cleaning up the street, enjoy your time with bubba.

So if involved in a shoot and the prosecutor says "You shot him 3 times that proves your intent to murder him". You can whip out the video and (usually; if the judge isn't a rabid anti) say "ladies and gentlemen of the jury here is a video that proves I knew beforehand that handguns are unreliable in stopping a life threatening assault in just one shot."
 
Last edited:
Top