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    Innocent woman, 22, is shot dead by cops who were in stand-off with ...

    A 22-year-old woman shot and killed at a Florida bar early Tuesday was hit by a stray bullet from a police officer's gun, it has been revealed.

    However another officer, Lt. Frank Nunez, was shot in the leg and suffered non-life-threatening injuries.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-bullet.html
    Paid vacation, though the term paid is not listed.

    Again, we all are responsible for rounds down range. It will be interesting to see if there are criminal charges lodged against the shooter. A civil suit must go to trial and the cop and cop shop held to account. I suspect that a citizen would be facing very serious charges as well as civil liability.

    Though, the cop in CA did not face any criminal liability for shooting up a truck with two women in it and charged the surfer dude when his truck got ventilated.

    A double standard does exist.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Paid vacation, though the term paid is not listed.

    Again, we all are responsible for rounds down range. It will be interesting to see if there are criminal charges lodged against the shooter. A civil suit must go to trial and the cop and cop shop held to account. I suspect that a citizen would be facing very serious charges as well as civil liability.

    Though, the cop in CA did not face any criminal liability for shooting up a truck with two women in it and charged the surfer dude when his truck got ventilated.

    A double standard does exist.
    While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".
    Last edited by 77zach; 08-22-2014 at 08:09 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    ...Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. ....
    While tragic and everything should be done to avoid, I agree so far that this is how it should be. The person CAUSING the need for self-defense should be the one responsible for collateral damage, unless there is clear negligence.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds.
    This^

    I saw the case of the robbery gone wrong in which the guy without the gun was killed, and his accomplice to the robbery is being charged with murder. He did have a gun. This was in Milwaukee.

    http://fox6now.com/2014/08/19/man-ch...optical-store/

    The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".
    This double standard exists beyond the gun range. This is why I don't particularly care for Colonial Gun Club here in Richmond. I have to completely disarm upon entering the building, but LEO are free to roam OCing.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".
    Cops very very rarely get dinged for killing innocents, they simply transfer that liability to a perp who did not pull the trigger that killed the innocent. Or, they reasonably believed 'X' and get off virtually unscathed.

    If the dealer did not sell the car to the drunk, or the bartender did not sell that one last drink, the drunk would not have killed anyone while driving drunk. In the case of the dealer, no law that I know of, there are some states that hold the bartender liable, I think.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Cops very very rarely get dinged for killing innocents, they simply transfer that liability to a perp who did not pull the trigger that killed the innocent. Or, they reasonably believed 'X' and get off virtually unscathed.

    If the dealer did not sell the car to the drunk, or the bartender did not sell that one last drink, the drunk would not have killed anyone while driving drunk. In the case of the dealer, no law that I know of, there are some states that hold the bartender liable, I think.
    Heck, cops don't get dinged, in many cases, for killing innocents even when there is no perp.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    While tragic and everything should be done to avoid, I agree so far that this is how it should be. The person CAUSING the need for self-defense should be the one responsible for collateral damage, unless there is clear negligence.
    I agree but shooting an innocent person seems to be prima facia proof of negligence to me. If you cannot hit your intended target, you should not shoot and if you do, then you were negligent.

    The cop had no duty to shoot or to stop the criminal. So his discharge was completely voluntary. He could have ran away. I know many cops who run the other direction of trouble.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I agree but shooting an innocent person seems to be prima facia proof of negligence to me...
    Probably more often than not, yes.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I agree but shooting an innocent person seems to be prima facia proof of negligence to me. If you cannot hit your intended target, you should not shoot and if you do, then you were negligent.

    The cop had no duty to shoot or to stop the criminal. So his discharge was completely voluntary. He could have ran away. I know many cops who run the other direction of trouble.
    In many cases, I think the officer has no duty to shoot or stop the criminal. Certainly, in the case of a misdemeanor there should be no 'chase', no shooting. If there is a 'do or die' attitude about apprehending the dirty rat criminals who dare challenge 'authoriatae', find an alternate way and if it takes more time, so be it.

    With that in mind I found this page with the 10 deadly sins of LE (note the one about 'Tombstone Courage':

    Based upon the investigations of hundreds of law enforcement officers line of duty deaths, these TEN DEADLY SINS were found to be the major cause of useless, unnecessary deaths. Will you make one of these errors today or have you done so already?

    YOUR ATTITUDE
    If you fail to keep your mind on the job while on patrol, or if you carry problems with you into the field, you will start to make errors. It can cost you or other fellow officers their lives.

    TOMBSTONE COURAGE
    No one doubts that you are brave, but in any situation where time allows - wait for backup, You should NOT try to make a dangerous apprehension alone and unaided.

    NOT ENOUGH REST
    To do your job you must be alert. Being sleepy or asleep on the job is not only against regulations, but you endanger yourself, the community and all of your fellow officers.

    TAKING A BAD POSITION
    Never let anyone you are questioning or about to stop get in a better position than you and your vehicle. There is no such thing as a routine call or stop.

    DANGER SIGNS
    You will come to recognize “danger signs” - movements, strange cars, warnings that should alert you to watch your step and approach with caution. Know your beat, your community and watch for anything that is out of place.

    FAILURE TO WATCH HANDS OF A SUSPECT
    Is he or she reaching for a weapon or getting ready to strike you? How else can a potential killer strike but with his or her hands.

    RELAXING TOO SOON
    The “rut” of false alarms. Observe the activity, never take any call as routine or just another false alarm. It’s your life on the line.

    IMPROPER USE OR NO HANDCUFFS
    Once you have made and arrest, handcuff the prisoner properly.

    NO SEARCH OR POOR SEARCH
    There are so many places a suspect can hide weapons that your failure to search is a crime against fellow officers. Many criminals carry several weapons and are able and prepared to use them against you.

    DIRTY OR INOPERATIVE WEAPON
    Is your firearm clean? Will it fire? How about ammunition? When did you fire your weapon last so that you know if you can hit a target in combat conditions? What’s the sense of carrying any firearm that may not work?

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Oh - forgot the link. BTW the Ferguson shooting was a lone officer following who should have waited for backup. This was not a dangerous, armed felon he was chasing...yet!

    Published by the Nat. Assoc of Police Chiefs. Do they believe their own code? I think not:
    http://www.aphf.org/10dead.pdf

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    They forgot to include "know the law" "don't make up the law."
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I agree so far that this is how it should be. The person CAUSING the need for self-defense should be the one responsible for collateral damage, unless there is clear negligence.
    I consider this as "a common sense gun law." Probably the only one I know of.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I consider this as "a common sense gun law." Probably the only one I know of.
    Perhaps this should be an affirmative defense .. one that a cop has to prove to citizen jurists instead of buddy cops.

    Someone is dead, why not put the shooter on trial?

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    ...Someone is dead, why not put the shooter on trial?
    Because since there are some unconstitutional laws on the books, all charges, no matter how justified, should be nullified anyway, right?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Let me get this straight, the perp who instigated the SD situation is responsible for a cop's errant shots?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Let me get this straight, the perp who instigated the SD situation is responsible for a cop's errant shots?
    Depends on the "errant" shots.

    If the shooting was NECESSARY to stop a violent or potentially deadly crime, and the "errant" shot is a freak that winds up causing collateral damage, then yes.

    If the cop had lots of options, but chose to spray and pray, then I would argue no.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Depends on the "errant" shots.

    If the shooting was NECESSARY to stop a violent or potentially deadly crime, and the "errant" shot is a freak that winds up causing collateral damage, then yes.

    If the cop had lots of options, but chose to spray and pray, then I would argue no.
    There is more to this story.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,3712336.story

    The perp will be held to account for the cop killing the girl, no doubt about it. If being responsible for rounds down range means anything then it must also mean something in this case and similar cases. I suspect that my view is a extreme view.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Let me get this straight, the perp who instigated the SD situation is responsible for a cop's errant shots?
    Basically, yes.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    There is more to this story.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,3712336.story

    The perp will be held to account for the cop killing the girl, no doubt about it. If being responsible for rounds down range means anything then it must also mean something in this case and similar cases. I suspect that my view is a extreme view.
    Remember that responsibility is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty to go around.

    Blame the criminal, fire the cop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Remember that responsibility is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty to go around.

    Blame the criminal, fire the cop.
    By the standard currently upheld by the Kourts, a criminal presence authorizes a cop to shoot everyone s/he see and oh well, sucks to be them. Pin it on the criminal...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Ixtow is probably being a little bit sarcastic, but he's actually accurate. It's now all about:
    1. Officer safety
    2. The only good citizen is a shot dead citizen (because you can't be too careful in making sure of #1).

    They actually go on TV after these shootings and spout a bunch of hogwash to back this up, and when they get the wrong house, person, car, they just say 'shut up and be glad you're not dead'. Seriously.

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    The suspect, whom police identified as 32-year-old Cortez Washington, was struck by the officers' gunfire, but fled outside the restaurant before collapsing. Officers continued firing at him as he exited the restaurant, and that was when the "Cops" crew member, Mr. Dion, was also struck, Mr. Schamaderer said.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/cops-...ing-1409213384
    The perp is dead and as such, given the prevailing sentiment on regarding the op, justice has been served because the perp is responsible (solely?) for the cop's errant shots.

    Vacating the cop's criminal responsibility for killing a bystander is...should be, unacceptable.
    Involuntary manslaughter, penalty. 565.024. 1. A person commits the crime of involuntary manslaughter in the first degree if he or she:

    (1) Recklessly causes the death of another person; or
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post



    This double standard exists beyond the gun range. This is why I don't particularly care for Colonial Gun Club here in Richmond. I have to completely disarm upon entering the building, but LEO are free to roam OCing.
    You do know LEO's are better people then us common scum. They are more trust worthy, better at the 40 yard dash, and can out eat anyone in a dounut eating countest....

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Ixtow is probably being a little bit sarcastic, but he's actually accurate. It's now all about:
    1. Officer safety
    2. The only good citizen is a shot dead citizen (because you can't be too careful in making sure of #1).

    They actually go on TV after these shootings and spout a bunch of hogwash to back this up, and when they get the wrong house, person, car, they just say 'shut up and be glad you're not dead'. Seriously.
    Police state = 1
    Freedom = 0

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Remember that responsibility is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty to go around.

    Blame the criminal, fire the cop.
    You know this won't happen, he will probably get a medical retirement with full pension for his PTSD from the guilt or something; that is if he doesn't stay on the force.

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