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Innocent woman, 22, is shot dead by cops who were in stand-off with ...

OC for ME

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A 22-year-old woman shot and killed at a Florida bar early Tuesday was hit by a stray bullet from a police officer's gun, it has been revealed.

However another officer, Lt. Frank Nunez, was shot in the leg and suffered non-life-threatening injuries.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eats-struck-police-officers-stray-bullet.html
Paid vacation, though the term paid is not listed.

Again, we all are responsible for rounds down range. It will be interesting to see if there are criminal charges lodged against the shooter. A civil suit must go to trial and the cop and cop shop held to account. I suspect that a citizen would be facing very serious charges as well as civil liability.

Though, the cop in CA did not face any criminal liability for shooting up a truck with two women in it and charged the surfer dude when his truck got ventilated.

A double standard does exist.
 

77zach

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Paid vacation, though the term paid is not listed.

Again, we all are responsible for rounds down range. It will be interesting to see if there are criminal charges lodged against the shooter. A civil suit must go to trial and the cop and cop shop held to account. I suspect that a citizen would be facing very serious charges as well as civil liability.

Though, the cop in CA did not face any criminal liability for shooting up a truck with two women in it and charged the surfer dude when his truck got ventilated.

A double standard does exist.

While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".
 
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MAC702

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...Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. ....

While tragic and everything should be done to avoid, I agree so far that this is how it should be. The person CAUSING the need for self-defense should be the one responsible for collateral damage, unless there is clear negligence.
 

The Truth

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While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds.
This^

I saw the case of the robbery gone wrong in which the guy without the gun was killed, and his accomplice to the robbery is being charged with murder. He did have a gun. This was in Milwaukee.

http://fox6now.com/2014/08/19/man-c...atal-shooting-inside-fox-point-optical-store/

The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".

This double standard exists beyond the gun range. This is why I don't particularly care for Colonial Gun Club here in Richmond. I have to completely disarm upon entering the building, but LEO are free to roam OCing.
 

OC for ME

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While there are plenty of double standards, I'm pretty sure there is not one here. Under Florida law the armed suspect will be charged with her murder, even if it was a "private citizen" who fired the rounds. The biggest double standard here is the still the OC issue. Even the shooting club I go to lets cops OC if they wear the badge. Non king's men can only carry concealed. "Safety Issues".
Cops very very rarely get dinged for killing innocents, they simply transfer that liability to a perp who did not pull the trigger that killed the innocent. Or, they reasonably believed 'X' and get off virtually unscathed.

If the dealer did not sell the car to the drunk, or the bartender did not sell that one last drink, the drunk would not have killed anyone while driving drunk. In the case of the dealer, no law that I know of, there are some states that hold the bartender liable, I think.
 

OC for ME

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Cops very very rarely get dinged for killing innocents, they simply transfer that liability to a perp who did not pull the trigger that killed the innocent. Or, they reasonably believed 'X' and get off virtually unscathed.

If the dealer did not sell the car to the drunk, or the bartender did not sell that one last drink, the drunk would not have killed anyone while driving drunk. In the case of the dealer, no law that I know of, there are some states that hold the bartender liable, I think.
Heck, cops don't get dinged, in many cases, for killing innocents even when there is no perp.
 

davidmcbeth

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While tragic and everything should be done to avoid, I agree so far that this is how it should be. The person CAUSING the need for self-defense should be the one responsible for collateral damage, unless there is clear negligence.

I agree but shooting an innocent person seems to be prima facia proof of negligence to me. If you cannot hit your intended target, you should not shoot and if you do, then you were negligent.

The cop had no duty to shoot or to stop the criminal. So his discharge was completely voluntary. He could have ran away. I know many cops who run the other direction of trouble.
 

Maverick9

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I agree but shooting an innocent person seems to be prima facia proof of negligence to me. If you cannot hit your intended target, you should not shoot and if you do, then you were negligent.

The cop had no duty to shoot or to stop the criminal. So his discharge was completely voluntary. He could have ran away. I know many cops who run the other direction of trouble.

In many cases, I think the officer has no duty to shoot or stop the criminal. Certainly, in the case of a misdemeanor there should be no 'chase', no shooting. If there is a 'do or die' attitude about apprehending the dirty rat criminals who dare challenge 'authoriatae', find an alternate way and if it takes more time, so be it.

With that in mind I found this page with the 10 deadly sins of LE (note the one about 'Tombstone Courage':

Based upon the investigations of hundreds of law enforcement officers line of duty deaths, these TEN DEADLY SINS were found to be the major cause of useless, unnecessary deaths. Will you make one of these errors today or have you done so already?

YOUR ATTITUDE
If you fail to keep your mind on the job while on patrol, or if you carry problems with you into the field, you will start to make errors. It can cost you or other fellow officers their lives.

TOMBSTONE COURAGE
No one doubts that you are brave, but in any situation where time allows - wait for backup, You should NOT try to make a dangerous apprehension alone and unaided.

NOT ENOUGH REST
To do your job you must be alert. Being sleepy or asleep on the job is not only against regulations, but you endanger yourself, the community and all of your fellow officers.

TAKING A BAD POSITION
Never let anyone you are questioning or about to stop get in a better position than you and your vehicle. There is no such thing as a routine call or stop.

DANGER SIGNS
You will come to recognize “danger signs” - movements, strange cars, warnings that should alert you to watch your step and approach with caution. Know your beat, your community and watch for anything that is out of place.

FAILURE TO WATCH HANDS OF A SUSPECT
Is he or she reaching for a weapon or getting ready to strike you? How else can a potential killer strike but with his or her hands.

RELAXING TOO SOON
The “rut” of false alarms. Observe the activity, never take any call as routine or just another false alarm. It’s your life on the line.

IMPROPER USE OR NO HANDCUFFS
Once you have made and arrest, handcuff the prisoner properly.

NO SEARCH OR POOR SEARCH
There are so many places a suspect can hide weapons that your failure to search is a crime against fellow officers. Many criminals carry several weapons and are able and prepared to use them against you.

DIRTY OR INOPERATIVE WEAPON
Is your firearm clean? Will it fire? How about ammunition? When did you fire your weapon last so that you know if you can hit a target in combat conditions? What’s the sense of carrying any firearm that may not work?
 

Maverick9

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Oh - forgot the link. BTW the Ferguson shooting was a lone officer following who should have waited for backup. This was not a dangerous, armed felon he was chasing...yet!

Published by the Nat. Assoc of Police Chiefs. Do they believe their own code? I think not:
http://www.aphf.org/10dead.pdf
 

MAC702

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Let me get this straight, the perp who instigated the SD situation is responsible for a cop's errant shots?

Depends on the "errant" shots.

If the shooting was NECESSARY to stop a violent or potentially deadly crime, and the "errant" shot is a freak that winds up causing collateral damage, then yes.

If the cop had lots of options, but chose to spray and pray, then I would argue no.
 

OC for ME

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Depends on the "errant" shots.

If the shooting was NECESSARY to stop a violent or potentially deadly crime, and the "errant" shot is a freak that winds up causing collateral damage, then yes.

If the cop had lots of options, but chose to spray and pray, then I would argue no.
There is more to this story.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...bar-shooting-orlando-20140820,0,3712336.story

The perp will be held to account for the cop killing the girl, no doubt about it. If being responsible for rounds down range means anything then it must also mean something in this case and similar cases. I suspect that my view is a extreme view.
 

marshaul

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There is more to this story.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...bar-shooting-orlando-20140820,0,3712336.story

The perp will be held to account for the cop killing the girl, no doubt about it. If being responsible for rounds down range means anything then it must also mean something in this case and similar cases. I suspect that my view is a extreme view.

Remember that responsibility is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty to go around. :)

Blame the criminal, fire the cop.
 

ixtow

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Remember that responsibility is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty to go around. :)

Blame the criminal, fire the cop.

By the standard currently upheld by the Kourts, a criminal presence authorizes a cop to shoot everyone s/he see and oh well, sucks to be them. Pin it on the criminal...
 
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