HD Audio-Video and VERY Detailed Script of Kajieme Powell Shooting in St. Louis

The Truth · Aug 23, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Any reason why a cop could not disarm the perp?

Have you seen the "meme" of the older British gentleman outfitted with his knife vest and baton, with the caption "53 year old cop armed with only a baton disarms and arrests suspect armed with a knife," and right next to it a picture from Ferguson, MO of the dread locked protester with his hands up and a cop in camis with an AR pointed at him?

Well here's a completely different Brit doing the same thing, with a tazer, with other examples.

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/08/uk-police-stop-someone-knife/

Also, wouldn't a riot shield suffice to defend a knife attack?

I'm trying really damn hard to accept what I need to accept but I need to discern a few things in my head first.

marshaul · Aug 24, 2014

Grapeshot said:
Unlike the old paper-rock-scissor game, there is no time for a "do over" if they both do the same thing - which would seem to be the case here. Guess they both chose to go with the most effective tool w/o consulting the other.

True. I still think that there is a training opportunity here; perhaps officers should have these discussions, or perhaps better yet practice doing so ahead of time?

It seems like we're pretty much wasting the benefit of having the second cop as far as the citizenry is concerned.

Jim675 · Aug 24, 2014

I still think the police fire too soon. The man was not a threat to others - he had plenty of chances prior to the arrival of the police. He was well away from the police who already had drawn and aimed - the Tueller drill does not apply. Get behind the vehicle and talk. Wait for backup and the chance for a Tazer shot. Call Spiderman.

Primus · Aug 24, 2014

Jim675 said:
I still think the police fire too soon. The man was not a threat to others - he had plenty of chances prior to the arrival of the police. He was well away from the police who already had drawn and aimed - the Tueller drill does not apply. Get behind the vehicle and talk. Wait for backup and the chance for a Tazer shot. Call Spiderman.

Why spiderman? Can they call you next time instead? Give you a nice bonus if you survive? Seems like a lucrative business.

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twoskinsonemanns · Aug 24, 2014

If it wasn't a cop I would say good shoot. Obviously biased but I would like to see pressure on cops to kill as a last result. They have some much of our stolen money for training and all kinds of various tools to police, it seems many cop-killings could be avoided without too much more risk to the cops. The problem is the priority is cop-safety-at-any-cost. Don't stop shooting until your finger gets tired. The courts will back you.

Jim675 · Aug 24, 2014

Primus said:
Why spiderman? Can they call you next time instead? Give you a nice bonus if you survive? Seems like a lucrative business.

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The point, of course, is that he did not attack anyone in the minutes prior to the officers' arrival and had they pulled back instead of pushed forward there's no reason to presume he would have attacked in the next several minutes. If that changes, deal with it then. If not, they had all the time in the world to call the guy's mom, kindly next door neighbor, or comic super-hero of his choice. And nobody gets shot.
If police could more often realize that aggressively charging into every situation is not the universal best option we would be better served.

OC for ME · Aug 25, 2014

Jim675 said:
...If police could more often realize that aggressively charging into every situation is not the universal best option we would be better served.

This is not how the law in Missouri is written.

Law enforcement officer's use of force in making an arrest.

563.046. 1. A law enforcement officer need not retreat or desist from efforts to effect the arrest, or from efforts to prevent the escape from custody, of a person he reasonably believes to have committed an offense because of resistance or threatened resistance of the arrestee. In addition to the use of physical force authorized under other sections of this chapter, he is, subject to the provisions of subsections 2 and 3, justified in the use of such physical force as he reasonably believes is immediately necessary to effect the arrest or to prevent the escape from custody.

2. The use of any physical force in making an arrest is not justified under this section unless the arrest is lawful or the law enforcement officer reasonably believes the arrest is lawful.
3. A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only
(1) When such is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or
(2) When he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested
(a) Has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or
(b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or
(c) May otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.
4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

TN-40 · Aug 25, 2014

This is just my .02.I still think they should have had one firearm drawn and a tazer.He was at least 15 to 20 ft away from officers when they opened fire on him.They should have hit him with the tazer the first time he came within range,but instead they waited for him to get even closer.

Jim675 · Aug 25, 2014

OC for ME said:
This is not how the law in Missouri is written.

And I am not arguing the law's point. I wish officers would apply some restraint before dialing even authorized force up to 11. Not "can I shoot now" but "is there another way to defuse this".

OC for ME · Aug 25, 2014

Jim675 said:
And I am not arguing the law's point. I wish officers would apply some restraint before dialing even authorized force up to 11. Not "can I shoot now" but "is there another way to defuse this".

No arguments from me. The law is what it is and the actions of the cops will be seen in the light of the law.

since9 · Sep 4, 2014

Jim675 said:
...there's no reason to presume he would have attacked in the next several minutes.

The video of knife-wielding perp advancing towards the cops while shouting obscenities tends to undermine your assertion.

Someone linked to a UK/taser advertisement, but even there we read the following:

"Certainly a Taser is an option that’s available to the officers,” said Dotson. “But Tasers aren’t 100 percent. So you’ve got an individual with a knife who’s moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, ‘shoot me now, kill me now.’ Tasers aren’t 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer... In a lethal situation, they used lethal force."

I concur with the immediately preceding assessment, and really don't care how the UK handles their business. After all, they keep their firearms in their trunks, if not locked up back at the station, where they're nice and "safe," incapable of harming anyone...

...or being used on the job as per their design.

The whole reason I included the transcript along with the video is to demonstrate precisely how little time these officers had to respond, much less coordinate how they were going to deal with the situation.

Having said that, if you have a bunch of officers on site dealing with a lunatic who is outraged but not harming anyone, then by all means use a taser.

That wasn't what was happening, here..

What happened is the perp charged the cops while baring a deadly weapon within 15 seconds of their arrival.

davidmcbeth · Sep 4, 2014

Grapeshot said:
He did.

OTOH disarming someone with a live blade w/o a use-of-force tool falls under the heading of "You are going to bleed."

You are bleeding from a lack of training. Most knife attacks, meant to harm, are not begun at 20ft away. Either know how to a) run very very fast or b) learn to disarm a knife from a guy

Its a good skill to acquire. Hopefully you never need to use it, 'cause even well trained, you will bleed sometimes.

Grapeshot · Sep 4, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
You are bleeding from a lack of training. Most knife attacks, meant to harm, are not begun at 20ft away. Either know how to a) run very very fast or b) learn to disarm a knife from a guy

Its a good skill to acquire. Hopefully you never need to use it, 'cause even well trained, you will bleed sometimes.

While I make no claims, I have been a student of Kali/Eskrima for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpJ1zmIKKto

I can't always run far enough, fast enough, but can can make my presence known with a live blade.

WalkingWolf · Sep 4, 2014

The cops in this incident were justified.

The question could they have avoided shooting is hard to say. I have been stabbed and encountered knives on several occaisions, not once did I go for my firearm. But in all the cases I was in a crowd or crowded place and much too close to have time to draw.

If at all possible in this situation considering the unrest in the community a strategy of backing off and waiting for more help to diffuse would be my plan. But I was not there, and again the officers were justified. One thing I noticed is they had the option of their vehicles, which a knife is useless against. They could have waited until he was in the open and hit him with one of the vehicles.

But it still comes back to they were justified, and it was not my decision. All that counts is whether they were justified or not, even though I might have done it differently.

Primus · Sep 4, 2014

Grapeshot said:
While I make no claims, I have been a student of Kali/Eskrima for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpJ1zmIKKto

I can't always run far enough, fast enough, but can can make my presence known with a live blade.

Grape I didn't know you were a 19 year old Asian male. Lol

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Grapeshot · Sep 5, 2014

Primus said:
Grape I didn't know you were a 19 year old Asian male. Lol

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Ah so is true, but you gotta look deeper these days

FallonJeeper · Sep 5, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
You are bleeding from a lack of training. Most knife attacks, meant to harm, are not begun at 20ft away. Either know how to a) run very very fast or b) learn to disarm a knife from a guy

Its a good skill to acquire. Hopefully you never need to use it, 'cause even well trained, you will bleed sometimes.

Sums it up.

As far as one officer with a firearm and one with a taser as suggested, who's going to make that call? Coin toss? Both officers had their firearms drawn for their own protection.

since9 · Sep 18, 2014

Grapeshot said:
While I make no claims, I have been a student of Kali/Eskrima for years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpJ1zmIKKto

I can't always run far enough, fast enough, but can can make my presence known with a live blade.

Neat! Never knew that existed. Whenever I've moved, about 18 times now (ugh), I've practiced on empty boxes using two 12" butcher knives while imagining typical defensive and offensive moves an assailant might make.

Might look up Kali/Eskrima in my area and learn what I've been missing.

The Truth · Sep 18, 2014

The guy's name was Kajeime, not Eskirima!

Grapeshot · Sep 19, 2014

The Truth said:
The guy's name was Kajeime, not Eskirima!

It is spelled Eskrima and it is not a person. Originally it was an art passed down within families. Now has become a style of knife/blade fighting.
http://stevekbs.tripod.com/id1.html

HD Audio-Video and VERY Detailed Script of Kajieme Powell Shooting in St. Louis

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