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Thread: Open carry is uncivilized

  1. #1
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    Open carry is uncivilized

    How do you respond to this, asked buy a guy who conceals and thinks OC will cause us to lose the 2nd.

  2. #2
    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    Don't bother. This is a person who has already made up their mind and will not listen to reason. It doesn't matter how logical an argument you present, they will counter it with misinformation. Usually some crap about, "You'll be the first one shot, someone will try to take it, extra attention from cops, element of surprise, etc."
    Now if someone approaches you with something like, "Why do you open carry?" or another open ended question then absolutely take the time to speak with them. This is a person that is demonstrating the will to actually listen to what you might have to say.
    I have rarely encountered negativity to OC and that's with living in the uber liberal Puget Sound area of Washington State.
    Just the other day I OC'd into a mall and had zero issues. Even had a security guard walk by me. He looked right at my gun then tipped his hat and said, "Good afternoon, sir."
    I nodded and smiled, "You too, sir!"
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

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    And you have yourself a nice day!

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birddseedd View Post
    How do you respond to this, asked buy a guy who conceals and thinks OC will cause us to lose the 2nd.
    Point him to this website and asked why it hasn't happened yet.

  5. #5
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    One could argue that it's uncivilized to conceal, but it's just not really worth it to argue with these types. CC has its place. Even my Dad doesn't really fully support my decision to OC, so I've heard a number of the reasons to strictly CC.

    Quote Originally Posted by decklin
    "You'll be the first one shot, someone will try to take it, extra attention from cops, element of surprise, etc."
    I've heard these before too, to which I tend to think:

    A) hiding the fact that you are armed makes you a more likely target, contrary to the logic that an OC weapon is a target

    B) concealing in hopes that you are targeted so that you can 'get yer rocks off' by engaging in a Hollywood-like shootout "surprise style" is not the best tactical measure

    C) you're afraid to exercise your rights (where applicable) and instead enjoy appeasing people as opposed to standing up for what is right, although it is ok to be uncomfortable with OC and to choose not to in that regard.

    I would never come at anyone verbally for questioning my OC rights, but if the guy was condescending and clearly lacking reasoning skills I might think of dropping one of these on him right before I chose to end the conversation. This site is a pretty useful resource and there are others too. There's a pretty effective essay written on another site supporting OC that I enjoy reading, and that is on Virginia Open Carry.
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    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    I ask a few very sumple questions and leave it at this...

    "Do you have a Right to carry a firearm concealed?"

    They always answer yes, because ignorance.

    "Then why do you need to ask permission to conceal? "

    And wing it from there. I set the tone and premise of the debate from the start so I can lead them down logical pathways. Some people follow, but most CC diehards shut their minds and refuse to consider that thair position was false.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birddseedd View Post
    How do you respond to this, asked buy a guy who conceals and thinks OC will cause us to lose the 2nd.
    Unless you live in Arizona, Vermont, Wyoming, or Alaska...

    Tell him that, by acquiescing to obtaining a permit, he has already abandoned that which is a right in favor of a mere privilege, able to be revoked at the whim of a bureaucrat.

    He's already freely given up his 2nd, so what's he worried about? That they won't grant him permission some day? Indeed they might not, for when you ask for permission, you implicitly grant the authority to deny that permission. But the solution is to deny the authority to grant or withhold permission, which in most states means OC.

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    He asked you a statement?

    As for the intent of your post, it would depend on their demenor. If they come across as someone who is close-minded and is just looking to argue, then I would respond with "I think it is uncivilized to conceal my weapon like a criminal as I have nothing to hide." If they seem to be more open then I would state that it isn't being uncivilized, but rather it is passive deterrence so that I hopefully don't have to draw my gun, compared to CCers who have to draw their gun to try and get any deterrence effect from it. If at any time it starts to become an arguement then I would just revert to the initial part of my post and move on.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 08-22-2014 at 03:56 PM.

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    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    I ask a few very sumple questions and leave it at this...

    "Do you have a Right to carry a firearm concealed?"

    They always answer yes, because ignorance.

    "Then why do you need to ask permission to conceal? "

    And wing it from there. I set the tone and premise of the debate from the start so I can lead them down logical pathways. Some people follow, but most CC diehards shut their minds and refuse to consider that thair position was false.
    of course we have a right to conceal... we ask permission because the government is infringing our rights, and we don't alone have the power to stand up to them, and would rather not go to prison. Some people may choose to defy illegal laws, but they'll till end up illegally detained in prison for years, and lose several of their other rights forever too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by birddseedd View Post
    How do you respond to this, asked buy a guy who conceals and thinks OC will cause us to lose the 2nd.
    What was the old comment? Oh, yes! Something like this:

    "A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still!"
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Do not argue with fools. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with years of experience.

    If it was a passing comment, let it (and you) pass.

    If it is someone youy regularly talk with, add it to weather, politics, and religion to the list of subjects you agree not to discuss.

    If it is a family member, look up the laws in your state on how to disown someone.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    of course we have a right to conceal... we ask permission because the government is infringing our rights, and we don't alone have the power to stand up to them, and would rather not go to prison. Some people may choose to defy illegal laws, but they'll till end up illegally detained in prison for years, and lose several of their other rights forever too.
    Oh trust me, I believe just as you say. It's merely a starting point to get the gears turning in their heads upon which I can build an argument one step at a time where each part challenges their existing mindset.
    "A Right Un-exercised is a Right Lost"

    "According to the law, [openly carrying] in a vehicle is against the law if the weapon is concealed" -Flamethrower (think about it....)

    Carrying an XDm 9mm with Hornady Critical Defense hollowpoint. Soon to be carrying a Ruger along with it....

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Collaborators don't listen anyway. He doesn't want a legitimate debate. See the line about adminstering medicine tot he dead in my signature.

    Don't waste your time on collaborators.
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    Last edited by Custodian; 08-23-2014 at 09:18 AM.
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    Regular Member F350's Avatar
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    I generally take the position... "Don't wrestle with hogs, the only result is you get dirty and the hog has fun".

    BUT if I do I quote the Colorado Constitution....

    Article II Section 13. Right to bear arms.
    The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.
    SOOOO, in Colorado open carrying is civilized while concealed carry is the provenance of the card sharp, hustler, pimp and back alley thug.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    I would probably just look at them funny, like they had said something offensive, or tell them that I'm sorry they feel that way.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member wittmeba's Avatar
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    He may likely be one that would support concealed carry to the extent that Open Carry would lose their rights. Then soon after the concealed carry would lose their rights and he would want to raise hell with anger over losing his rights - and not have a clue to understanding how/why it happened.

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    "I support the 2nd A, but only if you do it my way!".
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Some folks claim owning any gun is uncivilized. Luckily I don't give a damn what they think either.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Just reply "You trying to grab my gun?" ...

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    It's not "uncivilized" if you're wearing a suit.

    Remember, presenting a clean-cut and "professional" appearance -- along with proper deportment while OCing of course -- makes a good, reassuring and calming impression on the general public. A suit completes this "civilized" presentation.*


    * Please, be sure to color-coordinate appropriately also. Don't be a clueless imitator "poser" but instead, look like you know how to dress. "Power ties" are optional, but a tie color/finish that complements the color/finish of your gun indicates to everyone that the carrier has achieved the highest level of "being civilized" (and fashion-awareness) presently possible. In the example pictured below, we see our model carrier opting for simple shades of gray...a more "no-nonsense/no-frills/business-like" & somewhat "city-industrial" presentation -- but nonetheless, certainly still sporting a quite "civilized" appearance.
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    Last edited by cloudcroft; 08-24-2014 at 05:32 PM.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    It's not "uncivilized" if you're wearing a suit, period.

    Remember, presenting a clean-cut and "professional" appearance -- along with proper deportment while OCing of course -- makes a good, reassuring and calming impression on the general public. A suit completes this "civilized" presentation.*


    * Please, be sure to color-coordinate appropriately also. Don't be a "poser" but instead, look like you know how to dress. "Power ties" are optional, but a tie color/finish that complements the color/finish of your gun indicates to everyone that the carrier has achieved the highest level of "being civilized" (and fashion-awareness) presently possible. In the picture below, we see a carrier opting for simple shades of gray...a more "no-nonsense/no-frills/business-like" & somewhat "industrial" presentation -- but certainly still quite civilized nonetheless.
    Purple journalism.
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    Well, that may be expected, as it's a "local color" piece from a Purple State...

    ;-)
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 08-24-2014 at 04:18 PM.
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

  24. #24
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Unless you live in Arizona, Vermont, Wyoming, or Alaska...

    Tell him that, by acquiescing to obtaining a permit, he has already abandoned that which is a right in favor of a mere privilege, able to be revoked at the whim of a bureaucrat.

    He's already freely given up his 2nd, so what's he worried about? That they won't grant him permission some day? Indeed they might not, for when you ask for permission, you implicitly grant the authority to deny that permission. But the solution is to deny the authority to grant or withhold permission, which in most states means OC.
    Or ND, MN, IA, UT, OK, TN, GA, MA, or CT or a few others where open carry also requires a permission slip.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Or ND, MN, IA, UT, OK, TN, GA, MA, or CT or a few others where open carry also requires a permission slip.
    I referenced the states which allow concealed carry without a permission slip, saying that my response wouldn't apply there.

    Also Arkansas apparently. I missed that one.

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