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Thread: Which Senatorial Candidate has the best position on gun rights and the 2A?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Which Senatorial Candidate has the best position on gun rights and the 2A?

    SARVIS on the Second Amendment: http://www.robertsarvis.com/gun-rights

    I am committed to protecting the gun rights of law-abiding gun-owners and giving full respect to the Second Amendment. I believe the Supreme Court decisions in D.C. v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago, and the recent D.C. Circuit decision in Palmer v. District of Columbia are correct.
    In 2013, I was the only candidate for Governor to receive a "Very Pro-Gun" rating from the Virginia Citizens Defense League, and I repeatedly challenged politicians, commentators, and voters alike to take gun violence so seriously that we move past the facile gun-control demagoguery on the issue and discuss real solutions that go to the heart of the problem.
    At the RadioOne forum in Richmond, I was the only candidate willing to state the obvious truth:
    If we want to reduce gun violence, the best thing we can do is end the drug war. . . . We create, through the prohibition of drugs, a very well-armed, very violent, very well-funded criminal enterprise. It's a huge cause of gun violence.
    Just as the end of alcohol prohibition led to a decade-long reduction in gun violence, so too would ending drug prohibition. Any discussion of gun violence is not serious if it does not address the terrible effects of the drug war.
    Another important element to reducing gun violence is improving mental health services. Over half of gun deaths are suicides. Indeed my father died of a self-inflicted gunshot to the head. Awareness of mental health issues has improved dramatically in the last decade and continues to improve, and healthcare policy changes aimed at helping those suffering from mental health issues are appropriate. But that is an area of policy appropriately left to the states, which is why it was an important plank in my healthcare reform plan as a candidate for Governor. As a Senator, I will focus on removing regulations that inhibit states and service-providers from pursuing innovative healthcare reforms; my simple but far-reaching proposals for expanding the number of healthcare professionals available to provide affordable care in an open and competitive market is the single best way to ensure there are enough affordable mental-health (and other healthcare) services available to those in need of them.
    The era of gun-control restrictions, which have failed as an empirical matter, should be replaced by an era of intelligent policies that expand economic freedom, personal liberty, and individual responsibility. Freedom and gun rights are not the problem, and law-abiding gunowners should not be made to suffer for, or give up their rights and freedoms due to, the criminal acts of others. (And it's worth pointing out that the unjust results stemming from gun-control laws often fall most heavily on the poor and on minorities: Gun rights were crucial to the protection of freed slaves immediately after the Civil War. Gun rights were crucial to the long struggle for civil rights in the twentieth century. Lack of gun rights has contributed to the enormous loss of life concentrated in poor black neighborhoods racked by crime and drug wars. And criminal prosecutions of gun-control laws falls most heavily on blacks, the worst racial disparity of all crimes according to official statistics.
    The Second Amendment protects a right no less important than the First Amendment freedoms that precede it in the Bill of Rights. I'm the only candidate for U.S. Senate in Virginia who takes the ENTIRE Bill of Rights seriously, as well as the only candidate for Senate discussing real and effective policies to reduce gun violence and improve access to healthcare for all Americans.

    Gillespie on the Second Amendment: http://edforsenate.com/about/issues/
    Q: DO YOU SUPPORT THE SECOND AMENDMENT?
    A. As Virginia’s senator, I will oppose efforts to infringe upon our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, which is an individual right. I would not vote in favor of treaties that would cede firearm regulation to international bodies like the United Nations, in violation of the U.S. Constitution.
    Senator Warner voted against the bi-partisan Senate rejection of the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty which could undermine our Second Amendment rights and infringe on U.S. sovereignty. I would have stood up for our Second Amendment Constitutional right.

    Mark Warner on the Second Amendment: Link: http://markwarnerva.com/issues/
    Not an issue for Senator Warner.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    I would say the one with the best position on this matter would be the one OPENLY CARRYING without a permit (where legal) at all his campaign stops and in his life in general.

    Anyone fit that bill yet?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Who cares .. a right is a right ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Who cares .. a right is a right ...
    WE care in Virginia. Seems your state doesn't.

    Congratulations. You lose.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I would say the one with the best position on this matter would be the one OPENLY CARRYING without a permit (where legal) at all his campaign stops and in his life in general.

    Anyone fit that bill yet?
    Sparky, this thread is about the relative merits of the 2nd amendment position of each candidate. This sounds strange, but I find myself agreeing with David again.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Sparky, this thread is about the relative merits of the 2nd amendment position of each candidate. This sounds strange, but I find myself agreeing with David again.
    Agreed and since actions speak much louder than words---what states that more clearly than a candidate willing to OPEN CARRY at his campaign stops and generally in real life?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Agreed and since actions speak much louder than words---what states that more clearly than a candidate willing to OPEN CARRY at his campaign stops and generally in real life?
    Not everybody who does not open carry is a bad candidate and some open carriers I know would make horrible candidates.

    I do not really care if a senator open carries or not. What I care about is that the senator conducts himself as a senator in a way that supports our liberty in general and our second amendment in particular. This is why policy positions are so important.

    Sarvis has campaigned at gun shows. Neither Gillespie or Warner have.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Not everybody who does not open carry is a bad candidate and some open carriers I know would make horrible candidates.

    I do not really care if a senator open carries or not. What I care about is that the senator conducts himself as a senator in a way that supports our liberty in general and our second amendment in particular. This is why policy positions are so important.

    Sarvis has campaigned at gun shows. Neither Gillespie or Warner have.
    I agree with you, but wouldn't it be GREAT have a good, honorable, honest Candidate WITH integrity and an understanding of the PROPER role of Government and its proper limitations as well as OPEN CARRYING!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I agree with you, but wouldn't it be GREAT have a good, honorable, honest Candidate WITH integrity and an understanding of the PROPER role of Government and its proper limitations as well as OPEN CARRYING!
    Since there are only three candidates, and none of them are open carriers, which one, when viewed through their 2A lens (position) shows qualities which are closest to the rest of your list?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Since there are only three candidates, and none of them are open carriers, which one, when viewed through their 2A lens (position) shows qualities which are closest to the rest of your list?
    Well, since you seem not to have the desired "perfect" candidate who does clearly, unequivocally, and absolutely supports our and his 2A protected rights it becomes more difficult to discern through all the "stuff" that candidates seem to produce to demonstrate they support the issues they think you support.

    Wouldn't it be nice if just a few times one could take what a politician said a truth and fact without all the double speak.

    I really don't know on the 3 candidates you speak of. I have really hoped that somewhere in this county that at least one senatorial of congressional candidate even at the State level would be so clear about their believe in Constitution and the Government as envisioned by our Founding Fathers to actually OPENLY carry a firearm for all the world to see. I do suspect there may be some hesitation on this due to the wild eyed crazy absolute left media and certain very small and dropping in membership number anti-Constitution and 2A groups.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 08-25-2014 at 10:21 AM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Since I am NOT a single-issue voter, I will cast my vote for the candidate who most closely identifies with ALL of my positions, and who actually has a chance of winning.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Since I am NOT a single-issue voter, I will cast my vote for the candidate who most closely identifies with ALL of my positions, and who actually has a chance of winning.
    Gasp! What a unique consideration
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    The American patriots of 1776 didn't "have a chance" of winning.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    The American patriots of 1776 didn't "have a chance" of winning.
    Significant difference between the ballot box and the bullet box.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Gun Rights Examiner David Codrea weighs in

    Potent commentary follows:

    Moderation in Va. Senate race will advance special interests, not principles
    Thing is, if the object is to appear “moderate” on guns, Warner already has that market cornered. Time was, and not that long ago, NRA gave him an “A” rating. How it would benefit Gillespie to challenge him on who can undermine former supporters the most is unclear, although Warner’s actions do corroborate arguments this column has long made about the sustained reliability of so-called “pro-gun Democrats” that Fairfax seems so enamored with, despite their members continually getting betrayed.

    The thing is, Republican Gillespie isn’t exactly a shoo-in with hard core gun rights advocates, either, no matter what the mailer says. We’ve been burned badly on those before, and the adage “Fool me twice, shame on me” comes to mind. In this case, there’s reason to proceed with caution.

    “I know Gillespie and I will not support him or vote for him,” a frequent correspondent active in Virginia Second Amendment promotion and support told me. Part of that may be due to Gillespie’s refusal to personally commit to the issue, as illustrated by his failure to return a Virginia Citizens Defense League Candidate Survey. Part of it may be due to his consummate insider loyalties to the GOP establishment as a former Bush White House staffer and head of the RNC. Part of it may be that he established a “bipartisan” lobbying firm with a Democrat partner, and a former White House Counsel to Bill Clinton at that. And the big part is that there was a better candidate that the establishment did not want..
    I stand with David. The "Lesser of Two Evils" is obsolete.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Since I am NOT a single-issue voter, I will cast my vote for the candidate who... actually has a chance of winning.
    The fundamental fallacy here is the unstated notion that your individual vote has any chance of being the deciding vote. It's quite irrational to concern yourself with who will "win", simply because your vote has an infinitesimal chance of affecting that outcome.

    The sooner enough disaffected voters realize this, the sooner we'll be able to introduce some new voices into the political process. The two parties have become parasitic; their voices shrill; their conduct corrupt, self-serving, and non-productive. And ever more Americans recognize this fact; nearly half of all Americans consider themselves "independent" (and that's according to Gallup, who manage to routinely bias their polls in favor of the state and the status quo), a figure which is increasing steadily.

    I'm not under the delusion that my vote has the potential to elect a Libertarian candidate (or a Republican one). But I am aware that it would be irrational not to be part of the process I advocate – to put my vote where my mouth is.
    Last edited by marshaul; 08-27-2014 at 02:06 AM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The fundamental fallacy here is the unstated notion that your individual vote has any chance of being the deciding vote. It's quite irrational to concern yourself with who will "win", simply because your vote has an infinitesimal chance of affecting that outcome.

    The sooner enough disaffected voters realize this, the sooner we'll be able to introduce some new voices into the political process. The two parties have become parasitic; their voices shrill; their conduct corrupt, self-serving, and non-productive. And ever more Americans recognize this fact; nearly half of all Americans consider themselves "independent" (and that's according to Gallup, who manage to routinely bias their polls in favor of the state and the status quo), a figure which is increasing steadily.

    I'm not under the delusion that my vote has the potential to elect a Libertarian candidate (or a Republican one). But I am aware that it would be irrational not to be part of the process I advocate – to put my vote where my mouth is.
    It was "unstated," Marshaul, because I I neither stated it nor was it my intention to characterize my vote as the deciding vote. Please don't assign implications to my postings.

    In my opinion, one should have to have demonstrated one's ability as an effective legislator in local office before aspiring to a statewide position. In the last six years we have seen the damage that an untested, untried and inexperienced candidate can cause just because a bloc of voters elected him for all of the wrong reasons.

    It is not irrational to expect that we will elect people who have demonstrated their intellect, positions and capabilities through being elected to offices with increasing scopes of responsibility.

    No matter where your mouth is, you and I both know that Sarvis has NO CHANCE at being elected senator in 2014 and his presence on the ballot will only serve to dilute the results. Better that the Virginia Libertarian party spend their time at building a real voter base with candidates that have proven they are worthy of being elected to even the least offices in the neighborhood, city or county before trying to win state-wide offices.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    It was "unstated," Marshaul, because I I neither stated it nor was it my intention to characterize my vote as the deciding vote. Please don't assign implications to my postings...

    No matter where your mouth is, you and I both know that Sarvis has NO CHANCE at being elected senator in 2014 and his presence on the ballot will only serve to dilute the results.
    Elections are not titrations. There is no "dilution" of results. Their is only a winner, and losers. And your vote has no chance of affecting that outcome.

    It was "unstated" because you know it's easily refutable. Unfortunately, your position cannot escape its dependency on this invalid premise, no matter how much you pretend it isn't implicit.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Elections are not titrations. There is no "dilution" of results. Their There is only a winner, and losers. And your vote has no chance of affecting that outcome.

    It was "unstated" because you know it's easily refutable. Unfortunately, your position cannot escape its dependency on this invalid premise, no matter how much you pretend it isn't implicit.
    There.... fixed it for you.

    The only invalid premise in this whole discussion is your reliance on the idea that Sarvis has any chance of winning this election. Go ahead and waste your vote instead of working to create an effective Libertarian voting bloc and nominating Libertarian candidates for offices they might actually be able to win...
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    There.... fixed it for you.
    Congratulations. That will be the first and last time you get so lucky.

    The only invalid premise in this whole discussion is your reliance on the idea that Sarvis has any chance of winning this election. Go ahead and waste your vote instead of working to create an effective Libertarian voting bloc and nominating Libertarian candidates for offices they might actually be able to win...
    I possess no idea that Sarvis has any chance of winning this election. I am certain he will not.

    In case you had any doubts that your position is implicitly dependent on the unstated premise that your vote has a chance of affecting the outcome, see this little bit of projection here.

    Once you accept that your vote will never be the deciding vote, all of a sudden you don't need your candidate to win to justify voting for him. You only need him to be the most moral candidate.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The real invalid premise

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    There.... fixed it for you.

    The only invalid premise in this whole discussion is your reliance on the idea that [ Gilespie ] has any chance of winning this election. .
    There.... fixed it for you James!


    My fix was what is inside the [brackets]
    Last edited by Thundar; 08-27-2014 at 06:09 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Congratulations. That will be the first and last time you get so lucky.



    I possess no idea that Sarvis has any chance of winning this election. I am certain he will not.

    In case you had any doubts that your position is implicitly dependent on the unstated premise that your vote has a chance of affecting the outcome, see this little bit of projection here.

    Once you accept that your vote will never be the deciding vote, all of a sudden you don't need your candidate to win to justify voting for him. You only need him to be the most moral candidate.
    I, obviously, will be adding my vote to those who understand the reality and necessity of electing a candidate who best reflects our interests and who can actually achieve election. You and others may feel free to cast your vote on someone who cannot win and who, therefore, will be no more useful to you than having him buy a commiseration round of beer for his few supporters after the election. You will have made a statement, but your interests will not be furthered in the legislature. Seems kind of Pyrrhic to me.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Potent commentary follows:

    Moderation in Va. Senate race will advance special interests, not principles


    I stand with David. The "Lesser of Two Evils" is obsolete.
    +100000 That is a big AMEN, Repeater.

    Gilespie does not respond to VCDL survey. Eric Cantor does not respond to the VCDL survey. hmmmm, maybe there is again room for gun rights voters to stand and be noticed in Virginia.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    I, obviously, will be adding my vote to those who understand the reality and necessity of electing a candidate who best reflects our interests and who can actually achieve election. You and others may feel free to cast your vote on someone who cannot win and who, therefore, will be no more useful to you than having him buy a commiseration round of beer for his few supporters after the election. You will have made a statement, but your interests will not be furthered in the legislature. Seems kind of Pyrrhic to me.
    Again, you are operating under the implicit premise that your vote has any chance of seeing your interests furthered (or not) by the legislature. This is simply not so. Whether or not the GOP wins and manages to "further your interests" is completely independent of your vote. Similarly, whether Sarvis wins and "furthers my interests" is completely independent of my vote.

    Win or lose, your vote is no more "useful" to a GOP candidate than mine is to a libertarian.

    And that's completely ignoring the fact that the GOP is absolutely corrupt and self-serving, and consistently fails to further the interests of anybody (even so-called conservatives, among whose number I do not count myself) but the political class.
    Last edited by marshaul; 08-27-2014 at 06:58 PM.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    No matter where your mouth is, you and I both know that Sarvis has NO CHANCE at being elected senator in 2014 and his presence on the ballot will only serve to dilute the results. Better that the Virginia Libertarian party spend their time at building a real voter base with candidates that have proven they are worthy of being elected to even the least offices in the neighborhood, city or county before trying to win state-wide offices.

    I heard that same "dilute the results" phrase for the Virginia gubernatorial election.

    IN MY MIND, that implies that the votes would otherwise go to one of the equally atrocious candidates. I can state unequivocally that last November, that was not the case; while I can only speak to my vote, I know others who publicly stated they would rather "throw a vote away, if that's what it is" than vote for either of the two.

    Look at this year. We get Warner, who's proven himself no friend to us, or Gillespie, who isn't willing to answer a basic question about his stance. I'm not sure either is worthy of my vote there either, regardless of whether a third-party candidate might or might not be.

    Does there not come a time when we have to speak? If not at election time, then when?
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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