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Thread: How much more dangerous are open carriers with badges?

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    How much more dangerous are open carriers with badges?

    Here is a question I was pondering today that I thought would be interesting to get members' thoughts about. From a statistical perspective, for the average law-abiding citizen, how much more dangerous, if at all, are people openly carrying firearms who wear badges than open-carriers that don't have a badge?

    My thoughts are that non badge-carrying people who open carry are largely an extremely law abiding peaceful group. (Clearly concealed carriers as a whole would be less so since criminals are usually carrying concealed until the beginning of the criminal act.)

    OTOH, people with badges and open-carrying have a much harder job, trying to deal with the criminal element. They are exposed to more situations where a mistake could be made and a law-abiding citizen threatened with or injured by a firearm.

    This comparison seems like it could well inform the question of whether a person seeing an open-carrier without a badge should be more afraid than when seeing one with a badge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    <snip>

    OTOH, people with badges and open-carrying have a much harder job, trying to deal with the criminal element. .

    Harder job than who? I don't think that they work harder than any of the rest of us (they have a pretty easy job when compared to others IMO, much easier) ... and OSHA stats show that they are pretty safe as far as employees go...safer than my group and likely safer than most on the board.

    Not to many stories of OCers going nuts ... OCers are, as you said, very conservative of pulling their guns out.

    Cops? They pull their guns out many more times unnecessarily than regular citizens do. I've had about 20% of cops pull guns out during traffic stops. They appear to be rather afraid in their own job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Harder job than who? I don't think that they work harder than any of the rest of us (they have a pretty easy job when compared to others IMO, much easier) ... and OSHA stats show that they are pretty safe as far as employees go...safer than my group and likely safer than most on the board.
    Good point. I just meant more difficult to handle a firearm appropriately in offensive use against criminals than the largely defensive use that most non badge-carrying OCers are concerned with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Good point. I just meant more difficult to handle a firearm appropriately in offensive use against criminals than the largely defensive use that most non badge-carrying OCers are concerned with.
    Maybe..but they get to shoot 1000 rds w/o worrying about being put into the slammer.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The perspective on this thread is contrary to OCDO's position on law enforcement personnel.

    First LEOs and security officers are not in the general sense OCers - they carry as part of their employment, not to defend and normalize the acceptance of common folk doing so - that being the principal reason for this forum.

    There have been several studies/reports (some previous reported on these pages) that yes, OCers generally are more safe, practice more, and cause less collateral damage - Why? Because the day-to-day exposure is less, not greater.

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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-25-2014 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Added
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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    In before the lock.

    Please proceed.

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    Wowwie!!!

    Sooooo,,, Now I get it!!!!

    The OP is not wondering about me.
    An Open Carrier that would NOT wear a badge...

    The OP is not wondering about some others,
    that Open Carry that buy and wear a badge that says,,
    "Open Carry Badge",
    "Concealed Carry Badge" or
    "Law Abiding Citizen Badge".....

    Oh No,, that is not his Question.

    He is addressing the difference between Lawfully armed private citizens out and about in our day to day lives!
    Annnnd,,,
    Costumed agents of the state that open carry the power of their authority and wear a shiny BADGE!

    I can say with some certainty that the agents of the state are Much More Dangerous,,, too Everybody!!!

    And IBTL
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Yea costumed badged guys are definitely terrifying.

    I always run away screaming when firefighters show up.

    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Yea costumed badged guys are definitely terrifying.

    I always run away screaming when firefighters show up.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Where is state hater or TexasOC to get this locked for sure?
    Last edited by The Truth; 08-25-2014 at 03:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    First LEOs and security officers are not in the general sense OCers - they carry as part of their employment, not to defend and normalize the acceptance of common folk doing so - that being the principal reason for this forum.

    There have been several studies/reports (some previous reported on these pages) that yes, OCers generally are more safe, practice more, and cause less collateral damage - Why? Because the day-to-day exposure is less, not greater.
    As stated by many OCers here that they would turn away from instead of going towards gun fire.

    As a non LEO carrier one does not go about their day purposely looking for bad guys to confront.

    One is not contacting people under stressful situations on purpose.

    Very hard comparison to do they just are not the same.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If cops were peace officers vs. revenue collectors I suspect that the hazards of the job would diminish drastically.

    I strongly recommend that you rephrase the below.

    My thoughts are that non badge-carrying people who open carry are largely an extremely law abiding peaceful group. (Clearly concealed carriers as a whole would be less so since criminals are usually carrying concealed until the beginning of the criminal act.)
    If you need assistance please let me know.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    If cops were peace officers vs. revenue collectors I suspect that the hazards of the job would diminish drastically.

    I strongly recommend that you rephrase the below.

    If you need assistance please let me know.
    Irony is the most dangerous calls have nothing to do with collecting money for anyone.

    Last I checked most officers are killed or hurt at domestics or serving warrants. Neither provide money to state.

    Both would be a "peace officer" function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Irony is the most dangerous calls have nothing to do with collecting money for anyone.

    Last I checked most officers are killed or hurt at domestics or serving warrants. Neither provide money to state.

    Both would be a "peace officer" function.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Yeah the warrants are for not paying the state and the DV arrests get more money for the state upon railroading, I mean conviction.

    And convictions gain the state more slaves, oh um prisoners to force to labor.
    Last edited by Freedom1Man; 08-25-2014 at 08:09 AM.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Yeah the warrants are for not paying the state and the DV arrests get more money for the state upon railroading, I mean conviction.

    And convictions gain the state more slaves, oh um prisoners to force to labor.
    Cute.... Completely baseless and inaccurate but points for cuteness.

    I applaud the propaganda.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Yeah the warrants are for not paying the state and the DV arrests get more money for the state upon railroading, I mean conviction.

    And convictions gain the state more slaves, oh um prisoners to force to labor.
    Or the fact that they and their unions pressure politicians to steal more and more money for this so called "safety".

    Much of the danger is escalated by the "saver".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Irony is the most dangerous calls have nothing to do with collecting money for anyone.

    Last I checked most officers are killed or hurt at domestics or serving warrants. Neither provide money to state.

    Both would be a "peace officer" function.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


    I suspect that many of the warrants issued by a municipality are for completely "non-criminal" events. Warrants being served because a citizen failed to pay a fine for a infraction. I suspect that the risk associated with a warrant served for a infraction not getting addressed (paid) by the perp is analogous to a cop being in harms way for pulling over the speeding citizen.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Yeah the warrants are for not paying the state and the DV arrests get more money for the state upon railroading, I mean conviction.

    And convictions gain the state more slaves, oh um prisoners to force to labor.
    +1

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post


    I suspect that many of the warrants issued by a municipality are for completely "non-criminal" events. Warrants being served because a citizen failed to pay a fine for a infraction. I suspect that the risk associated with a warrant served for a infraction not getting addressed (paid) by the perp is analogous to a cop being in harms way for pulling over the speeding citizen.
    You can suspect all you want.... Doesn't mean its accurate...

    And where have you been? A cop is in harms way every time he pulls over a speeding citizen.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Yeah the warrants are for not paying the state and the DV arrests get more money for the state upon railroading, I mean conviction.

    And convictions gain the state more slaves, oh um prisoners to force to labor.

    I was once served papers by a deputy for not giving a landlord $980 to pull 7 staples (that were already there) out of a balcony railing. It had nothing to do with money owed to anyone but me. He sued me, I won. Simple economics.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can suspect all you want.... Doesn't mean its accurate...

    And where have you been? A cop is in harms way every time he pulls over a speeding citizen.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can suspect all you want.... Doesn't mean its accurate...

    And where have you been? A cop is in harms way every time he pulls over a speeding citizen.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    NO, a cop is not in harms way every time he pulls over a speeding vehicle. Could he be? Sure, traffic fatalities aside, but those cases are rare. Most times they are non-events. I suspect that the citizen being pulled over is at the same level of risk from the cop as is the cop from the citizen, rarely.

    Cops could let minor speeding infraction go by the wayside and thus dramatically reduce the potential for harm befalling them from the rare thug that gets pulled over.

    But this topic has nothing to do with the OP. The odds of getting shot by a cop may be statistically very much greater when compared to getting shot by citizens who OC. If the members of OCDO are worth any consideration I suspect that the citizen OCer is the very last worry a armed or unarmed citizen has when they come in contact with them. Cops, ya never know until ya parts ways unscathed.

    Harsh, sure, but I have yet to be able to tell a thug cop from a non thug cop just by looking at them.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    You can suspect all you want.... Doesn't mean its accurate...

    And where have you been? A cop is in harms way every time he pulls over a speeding citizen.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Then there is reality were the "civilian" is more likely to be harmed by the cop.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Then there is reality were the "civilian" is more likely to be harmed by the cop.
    Theory has been debunked many times.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Theory has been debunked many times.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Yes your theory that you take your life into danger with every traffic stop, has absolutely been debunked. You are more likely to die by a cop than a terrorist.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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