printing RAS

Raggs · Aug 25, 2014

Would printing while concealed be RAS for officers to stop you. would the wind blowing your shirt so that your firearm became visible be RAS?

Michigander · Aug 25, 2014

I would say not because there isn't likely a cop in the nations cc states that can honestly document any history of finding unlawful ccers using holsters. Ras requires ras and I don't see that there is any.

Of course in Michigan the law would require disclosure anyway but you certainly could file a lawsuit over it later, not that it'd go far

autosurgeon · Aug 26, 2014

I really doubt it and here is why. It is lawful to carry a gun concealed if you have a licence in MI. Further numerous scotus rulings have stated that the presence of a firearm absent other facts rising to the level of reasonable suspicion which is more than a hunch or feeling...is not grounds for detaining someone.

As for disclosure that only comes in if you are detained. Since an officer technically can at any time ask to see your CPL really he wouldn't have to detain you and wait to see if you would disclose. He could simply ask to see your CPL and you would have to show it to him. If he saw your gun printing in MI this is the case.. Most other states without disclosure laws he would need evidence of a crime to initiate any more than consensual conversation.

Note I said show him your CPL not give him your CPL. Important distinction.. Make him write down the number if he feels he must run it. You May have to show ID as well if requested when CCing.

IMOP INAL

JoeSparky · Aug 26, 2014

Just because the LEO sees what he suspects may be a gun how does he reasonably suspect the carrier has no permit.

autosurgeon · Aug 26, 2014

He doesn't have to in MI... If he thinks you should need a CPL he can ask to see it.

Exerp from section 28 of the penal code. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card
Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.

This part stands alone and does not require the officer to do anything but ask.

autosurgeon · Aug 26, 2014

Note if you are not carrying concealed you don't have to disclose or show a CPL or ID. Unless you are OCing in a pistol free zone while in possession of a CPL. Then it may be wise to show your CPL rather than going to jail to prove a point. As your CPL is your exemption from possession charges in a PFZ.

Michigander · Aug 26, 2014

How is it not being detained if you are not free to go because you have to show your id? That's news to me

autosurgeon · Aug 26, 2014

My point was they don't have to detain you for anything else and wait for you to disclose. They can simply immediately ask to see your CPL and ID and you must show them. No lengthy detention. No why am I being detained back and forth No wash rinse repeat. If you don't present CPL and ID you are investigated and ticketed for a civil infraction and will pay a 100.00 fine. Likely your gun would be taken and perhaps not given back on the spot. All sorts of unpleasant time wasting going to get it back.

I don't agree with the law however since it is the law I follow it for the time and work to get it removed.

So in short in MI if you have a CPL and CC you give up the right to not show ID if an officer were to decide to ask to see your CPL for some reason while you are CCing. As you must have your ID and your CPL and must show them both upon request. No where does it say that the officer needs any special reason to request just that they must be shown upon request.

And while this is likely a detention it could be the shortest on record... I had this happen once and literally it took less than a minute and the officer said thanks have a nice day and that was it. The longest part was me digging out my CPL as it was stuck in my wallet window.. Humid day.

F350 · Aug 26, 2014

autosurgeon said:
He doesn't have to in MI... If he thinks you should need a CPL he can ask to see it.

Exerp from section 28 of the penal code. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:
His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
His or her driver license or personal identification card
Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.

This part stands alone and does not require the officer to do anything but ask.

Yep it stands apart AND in direct violation of established SCOTUS and other Federal Court precedents.

United States v. Ubiles, 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir. 2000) declares that possession of a firearm in public, with no other circumstances present, does
not justify a stop. "For all the officers knew, even assuming the reliability of the tip that Ubiles
possessed a gun, Ubiles was . . . lawfully exercising his right . . . to possess a gun in public." See
also United States v. Dudley, 854 F. Supp. 570 (S.D.Ind. 1994), in which the court declared that
a report of persons with guns did not justify an investigative stop. "In short, the Government
failed to establish . . . that some reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, based on articulable
facts, justified this seizure. And, if the stop itself is unlawful, neither Terry nor Michigan v.
Long authorize the police to search the suspects or the suspect's vehicle for weapons, even if the
officers reasonably fear for their safety."

Likewise, the U.S. Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000), declared that there is
no "gun exception" to the Fourth Amendment

"Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648 (1979).

How is stopping someone just to check CCW any different than stopping someone just for a DL check??? Both are activities requiring a government permission slip.

autosurgeon · Aug 26, 2014

In order to get this stopped you would need someone to refuse to show CPL and get busted twice. The reason is the first time is simply a civil infraction. Then you would need to either take it all the way to the MI Supreme Court and win or win in the appeals court and have the case stop there... Or you would need to figure out how to get the case into federal court and hope you could win there.

The issue is while it would appear the situations are similar and should apply there is no legal case law that says it does. Also you would need the scotus to hear it and rule or your case law would only help a small area. And that would be no easy feat.

This is a complicated mess and there is no easy answer.

Michigander · Aug 26, 2014

The easier thing to do is to record the stop, make sure you don't legalize it with permission, then foia all of the documentation about the stop, then make a series of complaints for them detaining you without ras. Changing it may be outside our reach but retaliating for their abuse of power isn't.

NHCGRPR45 · Aug 31, 2014

autosurgeon said:
My point was they don't have to detain you for anything else and wait for you to disclose. They can simply immediately ask to see your CPL and ID and you must show them. No lengthy detention. No why am I being detained back and forth No wash rinse repeat. If you don't present CPL and ID you are investigated and ticketed for a civil infraction and will pay a 100.00 fine. Likely your gun would be taken and perhaps not given back on the spot. All sorts of unpleasant time wasting going to get it back.

I don't agree with the law however since it is the law I follow it for the time and work to get it removed.

So in short in MI if you have a CPL and CC you give up the right to not show ID if an officer were to decide to ask to see your CPL for some reason while you are CCing. As you must have your ID and your CPL and must show them both upon request. No where does it say that the officer needs any special reason to request just that they must be shown upon request.

And while this is likely a detention it could be the shortest on record... I had this happen once and literally it took less than a minute and the officer said thanks have a nice day and that was it. The longest part was me digging out my CPL as it was stuck in my wallet window.. Humid day.

Very similar thing happened to me last winter. I was at the 7-11 at Gratiot and Hall rd around 0630 and I had my dads coat on. Its bigger than mine and not as tight fitting, there was a strong wind that day. A Macomb County Sheriff was walking to his vehicle he looked at me did a double take then continued to his cruiser. I thought nothing of it and went inside. As I was getting my coffee the same officer came in with his partner, he looked right at me and bumped his buddy nodding in my direction. I knew at that point I was going to have an interaction with leos so I put my coffee down and waited for them to walk over. The officer that saw me outside asked if I had a gun on me. I asked if I was being stopped he said yes so I disclosed. He said he was stopping me because he noticed that when he was walking by he saw my gun. I said that I normally open carry but the wind must have blown my coat over it. He apologized for bothering me and we shook hands, his partner also shook my hand and said, he was pretty sure I was legal but backed up his partner. I asked if he wanted to see my Id's he said "nope your good have a great day" I told them to be safe and do the same.

Pretty good interaction, but still I go that gas station everyday and there are almost always 4 or more MCS officers there and I always say hello to the ones I see regularly. I hadn't seen this one but I know I have seen his partner before several times. Anyway, unintentionally I concealed they knew it was a crime to do so without a CPL and I had to disclose. That's another reason I prefer Open Carry, no disclosure needed! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have been stopped at all.

Evil Creamsicle · Sep 2, 2014

NHCGRPR45 said:
Very similar thing happened to me last winter. I was at the 7-11 at Gratiot and Hall rd around 0630 and I had my dads coat on. Its bigger than mine and not as tight fitting, there was a strong wind that day. A Macomb County Sheriff was walking to his vehicle he looked at me did a double take then continued to his cruiser. I thought nothing of it and went inside. As I was getting my coffee the same officer came in with his partner, he looked right at me and bumped his buddy nodding in my direction. I knew at that point I was going to have an interaction with leos so I put my coffee down and waited for them to walk over. The officer that saw me outside asked if I had a gun on me. I asked if I was being stopped he said yes so I disclosed. He said he was stopping me because he noticed that when he was walking by he saw my gun. I said that I normally open carry but the wind must have blown my coat over it. He apologized for bothering me and we shook hands, his partner also shook my hand and said, he was pretty sure I was legal but backed up his partner. I asked if he wanted to see my Id's he said "nope your good have a great day" I told them to be safe and do the same.

Pretty good interaction, but still I go that gas station everyday and there are almost always 4 or more MCS officers there and I always say hello to the ones I see regularly. I hadn't seen this one but I know I have seen his partner before several times. Anyway, unintentionally I concealed they knew it was a crime to do so without a CPL and I had to disclose. That's another reason I prefer Open Carry, no disclosure needed! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have been stopped at all.

If there is a legal way to do something, they should assume you're doing it that way though. They can't just pull you over because its illegal to drive without a license and you might not have one...

I don't know... people think we're nitpicking when we bring this up but its an important distinction.

MSG Laigaie · Sep 2, 2014

autosurgeon said:
My point was they don't have to detain you for anything else and wait for you to disclose. They can simply immediately ask to see your CPL and ID and you must show them. No lengthy detention. No why am I being detained back and forth No wash rinse repeat. If you don't present CPL and ID you are investigated and ticketed for a civil infraction and will pay a 100.00 fine. Likely your gun would be taken and perhaps not given back on the spot. All sorts of unpleasant time wasting going to get it back.

I don't agree with the law however since it is the law I follow it for the time and work to get it removed.

So in short in MI if you have a CPL and CC you give up the right to not show ID if an officer were to decide to ask to see your CPL for some reason while you are CCing. As you must have your ID and your CPL and must show them both upon request. No where does it say that the officer needs any special reason to request just that they must be shown upon request.

And while this is likely a detention it could be the shortest on record... I had this happen once and literally it took less than a minute and the officer said thanks have a nice day and that was it. The longest part was me digging out my CPL as it was stuck in my wallet window.. Humid day.

First I am not in Michigan, but I like to understand the Law.
Let us say I have a Michigan resident Concealed Pistol License. I am on a street corner and I am NOT armed. I have the physical appearance of the general population (dress not a factor). Can a LEO who assumes I have a CPL ask me for my ID because he thinks I have a weapon? The law seems to read that a LEO has free reign over that kind of situation and that is not comfortable with me. Please correct me.

Evil Creamsicle · Sep 2, 2014

MSG Laigaie said:
First I am not in Michigan, but I like to understand the Law.
Let us say I have a Michigan resident Concealed Pistol License. I am on a street corner and I am NOT armed. I have the physical appearance of the general population (dress not a factor). Can a LEO who assumes I have a CPL ask me for my ID because he thinks I have a weapon? The law seems to read that a LEO has free reign over that kind of situation and that is not comfortable with me. Please correct me.

If you are not armed, as in your example, you are not required to disclose ID. If you are armed only with an openly carried pistol [not a concealed pistol], you do not have to disclose. If you are armed with a concealed pistol, an officer may demand for you to show him your ID and concealed pistol license.

Bold added for emphasis.

28.425f said:
Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to peace officer; violation; penalty; notice to department and issuing board; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

Sec. 5f.

(1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.

(2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

(a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

1245A Defender · Sep 2, 2014

Wowwie!!!

MSG Laigaie said:
First I am not in Michigan, but I like to understand the Law.
Let us say I have a Michigan resident Concealed Pistol License. I am on a street corner and I am NOT armed. I have the physical appearance of the general population (dress not a factor). Can a LEO who assumes I have a CPL ask me for my ID because he thinks I have a weapon? The law seems to read that a LEO has free reign over that kind of situation and that is not comfortable with me. Please correct me.

Evil Creamsicle said:
If you are not armed, as in your example, you are not required to disclose ID. If you are armed only with an openly carried pistol [not a concealed pistol], you do not have to disclose. If you are armed with a concealed pistol, an officer may demand for you to show him your ID and concealed pistol license.

Bold added for emphasis.

Its not a problem with Michigan law,,,
It is a problem with people that do Not exercise their 4th Amendment right against Unreasonable Search!!!
If I or MSG Laigaie,,, are concealing, Properly, then the cop will NOT have the RAS necessary
to Demand! the ,,,,, Papers Please!!!

Maverick9 · Sep 2, 2014

NHCGRPR45 said:
...He said he was stopping me because he noticed that when he was walking by he saw my gun. I said that I normally open carry but the wind must have blown my coat over it. He apologized for bothering me and we shook hands, his partner also shook my hand and said, he was pretty sure I was legal but backed up his partner. I asked if he wanted to see my Id's he said "nope your good have a great day" I told them to be safe and do the same.

Pretty good interaction, but still I go that gas station everyday and there are almost always 4 or more MCS officers there and I always say hello to the ones I see regularly. I hadn't seen this one but I know I have seen his partner before several times. Anyway, unintentionally I concealed they knew it was a crime to do so without a CPL and I had to disclose. That's another reason I prefer Open Carry, no disclosure needed! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have been stopped at all.

So absent a crime, he stopped you to see if you could receive a civil citation, worried you were a criminal, then didn't want to see your ID AND you shook his hand? Rights only work if you're friendly to Fascists, huh?

Meanwhile, down the street from you that day, someone was committing an actual crime and got away...in theory...while they were investigating non-crimes, or at least non-felonies. Must be nice. Could be a method to get away with a crime. Hire a dozen CPL holders to wander around on the other side of town on a windy day...but I digress.

printing RAS

Raggs

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Michigander

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autosurgeon

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JoeSparky

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autosurgeon

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autosurgeon

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Michigander

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autosurgeon

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F350

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autosurgeon

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Michigander

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NHCGRPR45

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Evil Creamsicle

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MSG Laigaie

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Evil Creamsicle

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1245A Defender

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Maverick9

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