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Thread: Bicycle Seat Pouch? Legal or Concealed?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Bicycle Seat Pouch? Legal or Concealed?

    Hey Guys,

    Awesome forum.

    I ride a lot through Henderson and parts of the southern county and have a few questions which I'll post separately to keep it simple and organized.

    I have a pouch beneath my bicycle seat that I keep a lot of stuff in. If I put a gun inside will it be considered concealed or open? Is it similar to having it in the glove box of my car?

    My apologies if this has been covered in the past but when I searched it gave me the entire country.

    I'd rather not open carry on my bike rides due to traveling through so many parks and by schools on my rides. I normally ride 10-20 miles a day several days a week so pass through a lot of territory.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Ron_O; 08-26-2014 at 08:17 AM.

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    Good man! I bicycled armed for 10 years/40K miles in South Carolina's Lowcountry (Charleston) where a concealed weapon must be carried on ones person. Your devil will be in a close reading of your statutes. Best wishes.

    South Carolina requires:
    "Concealable weapon" means a firearm having a length of less than twelve inches measured along its greatest dimension that must be carried in a manner that is hidden from public view in normal wear of clothing except when needed for self-defense, defense of others, and the protection of real or personal property.
    Carry in a purse/briefcase will have to be the subject of litigation to precedential case law.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-26-2014 at 08:23 AM.
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    4000 miles a year Us bikers in snow country have a lot less time do it in.


    Haven't brought a snow bike yet.
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Awesome forum.

    I ride a lot through Henderson and parts of the southern county and have a few questions which I'll post separately to keep it simple and organized.

    I have a pouch beneath my bicycle seat that I keep a lot of stuff in. If I put a gun inside will it be considered concealed or open? Is it similar to having it in the glove box of my car?

    My apologies if this has been covered in the past but when I searched it gave me the entire country.

    I'd rather not open carry on my bike rides due to traveling through so many parks and by schools on my rides. I normally ride 10-20 miles a day several days a week so pass through a lot of territory.

    Thoughts?
    If the firearm is not on your person you should be good to go. You don't need to worry about open carry in Henderson Parks, or going by a school as long as you don't go on school property.
    Enjoy the ride in the knowledge that you have taken the responsibility for and provided for your own protection.

    TBG
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    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
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    What he NV attorney general considers concealed:

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/a...sConcealed.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Good man! I bicycled armed for 10 years/40K miles in South Carolina's Lowcountry (Charleston) where a concealed weapon must be carried on ones person. Your devil will be in a close reading of your statutes. Best wishes.

    South Carolina requires:
    Carry in a purse/briefcase will have to be the subject of litigation to precedential case law.
    Wisconsin guy posting a South Carolina statute in Nevada = Not at all helpful or relevant.


    In Nevada (where the poster lives and posted about), it's not considered "concealed" unless it's "carried upon a person in such a manner as not to be discernible by ordinary observation" (http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...#NRS202Sec3653). Garand Guy just posted a great link to what the State Attorney General considered to be concealed in this regard, but as long as it's not on your body your are not concealing by definition of the law. Consider it "carrying" or "keeping" in your bike seat, just like a glove box or under your seat in a car. No law prohibits or details where to keep your gun on your bike or in your car (only exception being that a rifle must be unchambered in a vehicle, not relevant to your question but worth mentioning since I brought up cars).

    Make damned sure you do not shortcut through school property at any time. Regardless of open or concealed, firearms are prohibited on school grounds per http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...l#NRS202Sec265 .

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The last three posters have nailed it for you. Carry on!
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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    If the firearm is not on your person you should be good to go. You don't need to worry about open carry in Henderson Parks, or going by a school as long as you don't go on school property.
    Enjoy the ride in the knowledge that you have taken the responsibility for and provided for your own protection.

    TBG
    Thanks Guys, here's a quote from the opinion listed in this thread:

    CONCLUSION It is our opinion that the language of NRS 202.350 would be narrowly construed to include only those concealed weapons which are actually on the person or in a container carried by the person. Sincerely, FRANKIE SUE DEL PAPA

    My concern goes back to being whether this can be construed as 'a container carried by the person', similar to how a purse or backpack may be carried. The legal opinion differentiates between being carried UPON a person vs. being carried UPON or ABOUT a person (within close proximity). The opinion cited a few different scenarios with one being a guy who was sitting on a cushion in the back seat of a car while the gun was UNDER the cushion (not guilty) and another in which it was under the seat (not guilty).

    This may seem petty but when it comes to someone looking to violate my rights, and the associated legal costs of defending myself, what about when I pick up my bike to lift it over an object, put it in my vehicle, or anything similar? It just seems that in general terms I can be considered to be carrying the weapon whether or not in technical terms good people can disagree.

    I'm not terribly concerned, should it be considered concealed, because I'd certainly be video taping any encounter and insist on exercising my 4th Amendment rights against the unlawful search of my pouch. I've felt it was OK and have been carrying on my last few rides and just wanted to get your thoughts along the way.

    And Big Guy, I've read your thread and appreciated your diligence regarding OC in the Henderson park system. I would just OC on my rides but I don't want to cue law enforcement to start tailing or observing me for those times that I may pass through a Clark County park vs. that of a Henderson park. The trails I ride pass through many parks in the 15-25 mile loops that I often ride. We also tend to disregard a few traffic laws along the way, as do most riders in our area, so we don't want to flag behavior that is generally otherwise overlooked by LE.

    I'm going to continue to carry in the pouch with a bit more assurance. I have to admit that since doing so I've felt MUCH better on my rides just knowing that I have that ace in the hole should I need it (my lady is often riding with me). Some of the areas we pass through are isolated and populated by the occasional homeless person here or there.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Oh and an interesting question just came up in another thread regarding the 34 mile Loop Trail.

    Frequently I ride the River Mountains Loop Trail which seems to have several jurisdictions, including federal land and a national park (Lake Mead NP).

    I realize that Nevada law states UPON rather than UPON or ABOUT, but what about when I'm in the park area itself? If you haven't ridden it this paved loop trail is a seamless 34 mile loop around a mountain section that starts at Railroad Pass, heads over to Lake Las Vegas (Henderson), down to Lake Mead (federal), along the lake and then up to Boulder City, and then back to Railroad Pass.

    Again, the firearm will likely never leave my pouch but we all know that unanticipated situations can arise (I'd never consent to a search of my pouch by a park ranger or LE officer).

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    ...what about when I pick up my bike to lift it over an object, put it in my vehicle, or anything similar?...
    We have a history of very good common-sense enforcement of this vague law. For example, anyone without a permit is technically in violation when they have a gun in a gun case while carrying it from their house to their car, or in their suitcase while checking their baggage at the airport. But no one is being hassled for this. They will clearly see a difference between a gun under your jacket or in a handheld case with no reason, and one inside a bag attached to the bicycle.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    They make carry cases for the triangle area formed by the top tube and the downtube. They also make a handlebar bag that goes in front, between the brifters (brake-shifters).

    Carrying under your seat seems like a bad idea, or at worst non-functional. If you don't have a permit and you want to carry on a bicycle, then either open carry on your hip, or in the places I mentioned.

    I'm not suggesting those places because I think you may need to deploy while riding, necessarily. I don't advocate that - ride away, instead. IMO, the place under the seat is unstable, too small and it gets dirt flung up on it by the back wheel.

    Good luck.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    They make carry cases for the triangle area formed by the top tube and the downtube. They also make a handlebar bag that goes in front, between the brifters (brake-shifters).

    Carrying under your seat seems like a bad idea, or at worst non-functional. If you don't have a permit and you want to carry on a bicycle, then either open carry on your hip, or in the places I mentioned.

    I'm not suggesting those places because I think you may need to deploy while riding, necessarily. I don't advocate that; ride away, instead. IMO, the place under the seat is unstable, too small and it gets dirt flung up on it by the back wheel.

    Good luck.
    Good suggestion on the extra bag; I'll pick one up. Sounds like they may make a carry triangle bag? My bag under the seat is actually pretty stable and I carry a pocket .380 in it. I've thought of it as more security than instant deployment but the triangle bag would give me one hand instant access and be really solid in that location, plus it's separated from all of the other stuff that I access regularly in the other bag.

    We normally ride on pavement so dirt's not an issue, plus the bag is really tight and heavy. I'll attach a pic from a ride on the River Mountains Loop Trail.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    My concern goes back to being whether this can be construed as 'a container carried by the person', similar to how a purse or backpack may be carried. The legal opinion differentiates between being carried UPON a person vs. being carried UPON or ABOUT a person (within close proximity). The opinion cited a few different scenarios with one being a guy who was sitting on a cushion in the back seat of a car while the gun was UNDER the cushion (not guilty) and another in which it was under the seat (not guilty).

    ....what about when I pick up my bike to lift it over an object, put it in my vehicle, or anything similar? It just seems that in general terms I can be considered to be carrying the weapon whether or not in technical terms good people can disagree.

    I'm not terribly concerned...
    I'm not terribly concerned for you either, and here's why: When you cite the differences being "UPON or ABOUT" in the AG's opinion, they're somewhat clear that they're discussing backpacks/purses/briefcases when it comes to "about" the person. As I've come to understand over the past few years of reading forums like this one, the idea is if a cop found a gun in your backpack sitting next to you in the car, chances are you carried the backpack upon your person to get it there, and it's still about your person at the time. Same with the briefcase, say it's spotted while you're at work. You obviously carried the briefcase into work with you with the gun inside, ergo you were carrying concealed on your person. It's going to be all the other off body positions that are considered safe (under a car seat, in a glove box, all not concealed upon a person).

    Considering a bike isn't one of those things normally carried to hide stuff (like a backpack or briefcase, whatever), I think anyone would have a hard time arguing you were carrying concealed for having your bike off the ground in your hand.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfrey123 View Post
    I'm not terribly concerned for you either, and here's why: When you cite the differences being "UPON or ABOUT" in the AG's opinion, they're somewhat clear that they're discussing backpacks/purses/briefcases when it comes to "about" the person. As I've come to understand over the past few years of reading forums like this one, the idea is if a cop found a gun in your backpack sitting next to you in the car, chances are you carried the backpack upon your person to get it there, and it's still about your person at the time. Same with the briefcase, say it's spotted while you're at work. You obviously carried the briefcase into work with you with the gun inside, ergo you were carrying concealed on your person. It's going to be all the other off body positions that are considered safe (under a car seat, in a glove box, all not concealed upon a person).

    Considering a bike isn't one of those things normally carried to hide stuff (like a backpack or briefcase, whatever), I think anyone would have a hard time arguing you were carrying concealed for having your bike off the ground in your hand.
    Yeah I did some more research myself and fully agree with you. I actually got another pouch for under my frame's main tube and transferred all of my other goodies into it (tools, rag, garage door opener, etc.) and will use the pouch under the seat primarily for the .380 and my wallet. Not a quick-draw setup but easily accessible while riding and easy to remove when heading into a building somewhere on a stop.

    Metro has their own version of 'concealed' but I'll worry about that if the day ever comes. Frankly I've never been pulled over on my bike and if I was I can't see it ever going anywhere that anyone would be getting into my storage cases. The only scenario I can see would be if I got into some kind of crash and they were searching my bike for ID so they'd know who to call or in an attempt to try to ID me if I was unconscious (I used to be a firefighter and we did that). Half the time I ride alone and the other half my girl is with me.

    Rode 19 miles this morning, all on public streets.

    Thanks for your thoughts!

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    Regular Member Dodoandduck's Avatar
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    Problem solved. :-) and yes this was taken here in town. The other concern I see with carrying in your seat pouch is accessibility. If you need it, you won't have time. If you have the time, you may have evaded the threat.
    Last edited by Dodoandduck; 09-02-2014 at 07:04 PM.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodoandduck View Post

    Problem solved. :-) and yes this was taken here in town. The other concern I see with carrying in your seat pouch is accessibility. If you need it, you won't have time. If you have the time, you may have evaded the threat.
    Ha! Great pic. Probably riding where the coyote's occasionally harass riders.

    I guess the best way to answer your concern would be to say that I'm glad I have a gun along rather than not. If someone tackles me from behind a bush then I guess I'll have to fight my way out but generally my other half is with me and she can certainly retrieve the weapon and fire at will. We were out shooting on Labor Day south of town and she did great.

    I did end up getting another pouch however and moved all of my other 'usual carries' such as tools etc. to that pouch and dedicated the rear pouch to the .380. It's easy to reach back and pull it out but again I rely on situational awareness rather than being mugged by surprise. If someone wants my wallet I'll just reach into my pouch and pull it out for them...

    Riding up upon a scene is probably as much a scenario that I'd expect as it would to be threatened myself. If I see something going down I can quickly (and silently) approach or flee as the scenario unfolded, and take action accordingly. It's just nice being armed, especially when compared to having not been for so many years before now. I was a firefighter for a lot of years and doing that teaches you to keep your eyes open for most everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    when I pick up my bike to lift it over an object, put it in my vehicle, or anything similar? It just seems that in general terms I can be considered to be carrying the weapon whether or not in technical terms good people can disagree.
    .
    Technically if the gun is in a container, and you pick up the container, then you are carrying the contents according to the way the AG opinion is written. Keep in mind the AG opinion is only a statement of how they will prosecute, not how the courts will rule. And just because they say one thing doesn't mean they won't do another. But assuming that the AG is going strictly by the 94-13 opinion when they prosecute, picking the entire bike up might be technically picking up a container.

    If you always keep one of the wheels of the bike on the ground though, perhaps you can argue you are riding it (maybe even pushing) over the objects and not carrying it. You could switch to open carry just before you pick up the bike to put it in your car.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 09-07-2014 at 06:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfrey123 View Post
    I'm not terribly concerned for you either, and here's why: When you cite the differences being "UPON or ABOUT" in the AG's opinion, they're somewhat clear that they're discussing backpacks/purses/briefcases when it comes to "about" the person. As I've come to understand over the past few years of reading forums like this one, the idea is if a cop found a gun in your backpack sitting next to you in the car, chances are you carried the backpack upon your person to get it there, and it's still about your person at the time. Same with the briefcase, say it's spotted while you're at work. You obviously carried the briefcase into work with you with the gun inside, ergo you were carrying concealed on your person. It's going to be all the other off body positions that are considered safe (under a car seat, in a glove box, all not concealed upon a person).

    Considering a bike isn't one of those things normally carried to hide stuff (like a backpack or briefcase, whatever), I think anyone would have a hard time arguing you were carrying concealed for having your bike off the ground in your hand.
    In criminal court they must prove the allegations beyond all reasonable doubt.

    The fact there is a briefcase or backpack next to you with a gun in it does NOT prove that you carried that briefcase or bag with the gun in it. You could easily put the gun in the briefcase or bag AFTER you set it down. And this is not even unreasonable. You might open carry to defend yourself on the way to your work desk, but once you get there you might not want to wear the gun all day long and you could put the gun away in your bag on the desk.

    Normally I carry in high-ride holsters because low-ride holsters are uncomfortable to sit with. But I have some low-ride holsters I use at the range. Too uncomfortable to wear them while driving, so often once I get in the car, I will take the gun off and put it in my range bag (which is a backpack) sitting on the passenger seat once I get in the car.

    Also, because there is your bag next to you with your gun in it does not even prove you carried the bag or the gun at all. Maybe your friend with his concealed carry permit helped you load your car and put the gun/bag in the car. Or if you were at work, your co-worker with a CCW might have carried your bag in, or transitioned your gun from his bag to your bag once you set your bag on your desk.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 09-07-2014 at 06:33 PM.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Pic of 'No Firearms' sign on Loop Trail

    I was back out riding the Loop again Thursday morning. I may make it an annual 9/11 event. Took these shots at the end of the ride. This sign is located in the parking lot on the NE corner of the Loop, near the Lake Las Vegas entrance to Lake Mead National Park. It's known as the equestrian parking lot.

    Looks non-enforceable to me, developed by a conglomeration of public and private donors.

    Pardon the relative lack of clarity, my phone was a bit moist at the end of this 35 mile ride!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Ron_O; 09-12-2014 at 04:07 AM.

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    A quick search got us a contact... I will call later today. see if the phone works.
    River Mountains Trail Partnership is located at the address 1000 Rancho Cir in Las Vegas, Nevada 89107.

    River Mountains Trail Partnership has an annual sales volume of 501K - 999,999. . For more information contact Jr Bill Laub, Manager

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    ...This sign is located in the parking lot on the NE corner of the Loop, near the Lake Las Vegas entrance to Lake Mead National Park. It's known as the equestrian parking lot.

    Looks non-enforceable to me,...
    Agreed. Sounds like it's on the private property portion?
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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