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Thread: River Mountains Loop Trail off limits while bicycling?

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Cool River Mountains Loop Trail off limits while bicycling?

    I'm an avid bicyclist and occasionally ride the River Mountains Loop Trail which is listed as no firearms allowed. I thought the City of Henderson built and owned it but apparently not.

    It's posted 'no firearms allowed'.

    If you're not aware, it goes from the Railroad Pass Casino to Boulder City to Lake Mead to Lake Las Vegas and back up to Railroad Pass (34 miles). I assume it passes through Henderson, Boulder City, and the Lake Mead National Recreation Area.

    Here's a map: http://rivermountainstrail.org/trail...-composite.jpg

    My apologies if this topic's come up but I don't know how to restrict my search to only Nevada.
    Last edited by Ron_O; 08-26-2014 at 08:29 AM.

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    At the top state level forum (click on Nevada) my browser shows a search box right near the top "search forum." I believe that limits the search to the state. But OCDO's search function is frequently disparaged. I frequently use an external site search function that might be written "search term" site:forum.opencarry.org/forums/Nevada or what ever is the label for the forum
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I can't see anything about the trail that would legitimize a "no weapons" request. I can't even figure out who built it, but I only did a cursory look through the webpage. I'm going with the assumption that firearms are legal and someone (moron at that, but I digress) exceeded their authority when posting the sign.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I can't see anything about the trail that would legitimize a "no weapons" request. I can't even figure out who built it, but I only did a cursory look through the webpage. I'm going with the assumption that firearms are legal and someone (moron at that, but I digress) exceeded their authority when posting the sign.
    Be worried that a moron would enforce what the sign stated simply because the sign exists where it exists.

    "It must be the law, it's on a official looking sign...see, right there. Now, turnaround...real slow, like molasses in December."
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Who owns it.

    From what I see it is owned by 4 separate entities. Each owning their own portion of it.

    City of Henderson from mile marker 0 to mile marker 11.5

    Boulder City from mile marker 28.5 to mile marker 34.5

    Lake Mead, NPS, mm 11.5 to mm28.5

    Bureau of Reclamation, tunnel gate to Hoover Dam parking lot.

    Railroad Pass Casino from mm 0 to mm 1, parking lot.

    So the only place I can see that it is a no go is Bureau of Reclamation land. Of course RR Pass Casino could in fact trespass you.

    TBG
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    I'm an avid bicyclist and occasionally ride the River Mountains Loop Trail which is listed as no firearms allowed. I thought the City of Henderson built and owned it but apparently not.

    It's posted 'no firearms allowed'.

    If you're not aware, it goes from the Railroad Pass Casino to Boulder City to Lake Mead to Lake Las Vegas and back up to Railroad Pass (34 miles). I assume it passes through Henderson, Boulder City, and the Lake Mead National Recreation Area.

    Here's a map: http://rivermountainstrail.org/trail...-composite.jpg

    My apologies if this topic's come up but I don't know how to restrict my search to only Nevada.
    Can you photo and post the exact sign, including any fine print?

    My instructor told me that my firearm was not and should not be referred to as a weapon. A sign saying 'no weapons' is very vague. A Kryptonite Bike Lock is a weapon.

    A sign saying 'in accordance with (Statute XYZ, part 2) illegal firearms are not permitted by the authority of "somethingofficialsounding", might also be vague, because your firearm is not 'illegal'.

    Or it might say 'concealed firearms not permitted' and if your state allows OC-ing, that might be too vague.

    But, IMO/IANAL, if the sign was very specific, had a date, had an ordinance, an agency, a phone number, and was in a state without preemption, and in your state a sign had the force of law, I'd be tempted to obey the specific provision. If the area was dangerous and no metal detectors were in use, it would be a hard decision to make and you'd have to decide what's more important, a ticket or your life.

    Let us know when you have a photo of the sign.

    ===
    I would say a Federal Sign that was up to date (i.e. not an old one made before it was legal to carry in certain Federal Parks), I'd probably find another place to ride/carry.

    But as TBG says above, with that smorgasboard of agencies, it's almost impossible to obey a law that changes every 10 miles, doing something legal except for the last 0.1 mile into the parking lot. That might be something you'd want to present to an NRA group or firearm defense league in your area to be challenged. Write the congressman or something.
    Last edited by Maverick9; 08-26-2014 at 04:36 PM.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    From what I see it is owned by 4 separate entities. Each owning their own portion of it.

    City of Henderson from mile marker 0 to mile marker 11.5

    Boulder City from mile marker 28.5 to mile marker 34.5

    Lake Mead, NPS, mm 11.5 to mm28.5

    Bureau of Reclamation, tunnel gate to Hoover Dam parking lot.

    Railroad Pass Casino from mm 0 to mm 1, parking lot.

    So the only place I can see that it is a no go is Bureau of Reclamation land. Of course RR Pass Casino could in fact trespass you.

    TBG
    Thanks All,

    I'm just going to ride the damn thing with my firearm in my pouch and it'll probably never leave it so no worries. I'd be a bit more concerned about full Open Carry on the Loop.

    I have concerns that Bureau of Rec (a federal agency) can somehow preclude our rights to carry, but I think that's in reference to the tunnel trail down to the dam and the Loop doesn't actually encompass that portion of the trail (sometimes I offload at the visitor center and head NW on the Loop from there). And I'm not sure if RR Pass Casino owns the land the trail is on but instead it's Henderson or BLM. I have parked in their lot before but don't send off from that point any longer.

    The next time I'm out there I'll shoot a pic of the actual sign. This one was located in the lot that's just before the Lake Mead park entrance near Lake Las Vegas (a no-fee parking lot). I believe it says 'no firearms' without citing any type of ordinance.

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    Regular Member Dodoandduck's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought carry was legal in national parks/recreation areas. While the Bereau of Reclamation owns the tunnel to the dam, the River Mountains loop trail does not go into that area. I ride the trail often and don't see any issues coming up.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodoandduck View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought carry was legal in national parks/recreation areas. While the Bureau of Reclamation owns the tunnel to the dam, the River Mountains loop trail does not go into that area. I ride the trail often and don't see any issues coming up.
    You are right, there are no restrictions for state-legal carrying in the Lake Mead National Rec Area.

    And while, yes, the BOR area would be different, I can't confirm anything about where the trail goes.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    Thanks All,

    I'm just going to ride the damn thing with my firearm in my pouch and it'll probably never leave it so no worries. I'd be a bit more concerned about full Open Carry on the Loop.

    I have concerns that Bureau of Rec (a federal agency) can somehow preclude our rights to carry, but I think that's in reference to the tunnel trail down to the dam and the Loop doesn't actually encompass that portion of the trail (sometimes I offload at the visitor center and head NW on the Loop from there). And I'm not sure if RR Pass Casino owns the land the trail is on but instead it's Henderson or BLM. I have parked in their lot before but don't send off from that point any longer.

    The next time I'm out there I'll shoot a pic of the actual sign. This one was located in the lot that's just before the Lake Mead park entrance near Lake Las Vegas (a no-fee parking lot). I believe it says 'no firearms' without citing any type of ordinance.
    Of course if you needed to use it in a "legally-able to be restricted area" be aware of the legal issues involved.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Of course if you needed to use it in a "legally-able to be restricted area" be aware of the legal issues involved.
    "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6..."

    I'd plead ignorance, convoluted jurisdictions, jury nullification, and a violation of my 2nd A rights, and then take it as high up as the courts allowed...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6..."

    I'd plead ignorance, convoluted jurisdictions, jury nullification, and a violation of my 2nd A rights, and then take it as high up as the courts allowed...

    You know that the courts and law expect you to know every law of the land (and other countries too). Isn't that special.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    You know that the courts and law expect you to know every law of the land (and other countries too). Isn't that special.
    Oh, I know. But like your avatar states, juries can at times cut through the BS and get it right. So can judges...

    I'll take a pic of the sign(s) the next time I'm out there. Waiting for cooler weather!

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