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Thread: Girl, 9, kills firing instructor with Uzi in Arizona Bullets & Burgers range accident

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    Girl, 9, kills firing instructor with Uzi in Arizona Bullets & Burgers range accident

    The website for the shooting range, Bullets and Burgers, said that children between the ages of 8 and 17 are allowed to fire weapons, so long as their parents are with them.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...zi-in-arizona/

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I never have, and still do not, understand why firearms instructors stand off to the side.

    They need to be behind, and close enough in to be able to grab and guide the barrel.

    Given the known tendency of full auto barrels to rise, and given the known tendency of young children not to have great muscle strength, someone (cough, cough *the instructor* cough, cough) should have been right in there holding the handgrips along with the child.

    No, this is not "IMHO". It is outright putting the blame on the instructor. Last I heard, their job is not to teach the mechanics of shooting but to teach the mechanics of shooting safely. Safety wins out over "personal space" every time.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Man this is really not good. I'd say blame goes about 95% instructor 5% parents. Horrible that this girl will have to deal with this the rest of her life because of unsafe practices.
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    Always get behind a weapon!

    I agree with every post so far. The instructor, knowing that a fully automatic is a different ballgame, should've been behind the individual handling the weapon rather than standing to the left of the 9 year old girl acting like a cheerleader for her. Hopefully, this doesn't spike up the gun control debate again.

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    ...child abuse by the parents?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Thumbs down Carring Guns and Letting Children Fire Weapons is INSANE

    what the hell is a 9 year old doing at a shooting range with an Uzi?!? crazy idiots

    the age limit should be 21+ not 8+

    that said, why should anyone need to learn how to shoot an Uzi machine-gun anyway?

    hundreds of innocent men, women and children die every year in the USA from attacks by crazed idiots or through accidents like this - how the hell can anyone justify having guns in public?
    Last edited by Ady Miles; 08-27-2014 at 12:33 PM. Reason: additional comments

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    This is 100% on the "instructor," to the point that I wonder what his "instructor" credentials are beyond working at a place with a big berm and a few machine guns for tourists.

    This little girl might grow up to be the next Sarah Brady because of this.

    What "instructor" doesn't remember 2008 when an 8-year old boy shot and killed himself with an UZI because of the same issue? Three people were indicted for that one, including the police chief that was a part of it. Thank God the innocent kid wasn't harmed any more than mentally this time.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ady Miles View Post
    what the hell is a 9 year old doing at a shooting range with an Uzi?!? crazy idiots

    the age limit should be 21+ not 8+

    that said, why should anyone need to learn how to shoot an Uzi machine-gun anyway?
    I doubt you are here to actually discuss it, but just to vent and rant, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

    You likely have no idea that there are many youngsters that are nearly professional shooters by that age, so that's not the issue. This was 100% idiocy, yes, because of lack of training, not age.

    Americans don't ask "why should they be allowed do that?" Free Americans ask "why should they not be allowed to do that?" And, yes, this time, there was idiocy involved, and fortunately, only the responsible person was the one physically injured by it.

    Perhaps you are unaware of how many adults (21+) are doing stupid things and killing themselves or others accidentally (with guns having a far, far better safety record than cars or pools, for example). The chief reason for accidents with guns is not exposing them to firearms and their safe usage while they are still kids. So the age isn't the issue. The training is.

    As far as your subject line goes (Carrying guns and ...) I will say that I am impressed you left no exception for police officers. That's at least refreshing, as they have proven that they are no better than anyone else.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-27-2014 at 02:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ady Miles View Post
    [ ... ] - how the hell can anyone justify having guns in public?
    It is righteous (the objective of justify) by the natural law right to defense of life. Which part of "shall not be infringed" is unclear? Yes, I see that you are a subject and not a citizen.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ady Miles View Post
    what the hell is a 9 year old ...
    Why would anyone desire to deprive a 9 y/o of their natural right to self defense due simply to their age. You certainly are not liberty minded and also hold little regard for kids and their safety.

    Then again, could be nothing more than a drive-by posting.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Filed under "Can't fix stupid".........and there is no do-over.

    A tragedy on so many levels. The instructor paid the full price for his errors. His wife has lost her partner. The child and her parents will have to come to terms with this.

    I'm saddened, I'm angry, but most of all I have an intense feeling of frustration - there is nothing I can do to make it better, absolutely nothing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Filed under "Can't fix stupid".........and there is no do-over.

    A tragedy on so many levels. The instructor paid the full price for his errors. His wife has lost her partner. The child and her parents will have to come to terms with this.

    I'm saddened, I'm angry, but most of all I have an intense feeling of frustration - there is nothing I can do to make it better, absolutely nothing.
    Making fun of a POHM is always fun. Ask our Aussie friends. I've spent many a dollar in a pub having a bit of fun at a POHMs expense.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    [QUOTE=Ady Miles;2086218]

    the age limit should be 21+ not 8+

    that said, why should anyone need to learn how to shoot an Uzi machine-gun anyway?

    Age has nothing to do with it, this was a training and safety issue not an age issue.

    Because shooting a Uzi or other full auto firearm is fun. Why does anyone need to learn to fly a hot air balloon or golf or drive a race car?

    Shooting is relatively safe keep in mind that this is one accident out of 100s of millions of trips to the range. One has a larger chance of being killed driving to the range than at the range.
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ady Miles View Post
    what the hell is a 9 year old doing at a shooting range with an Uzi?!? crazy idiots

    the age limit should be 21+ not 8+

    that said, why should anyone need to learn how to shoot an Uzi machine-gun anyway?

    hundreds of innocent men, women and children die every year in the USA from attacks by crazed idiots or through accidents like this - how the hell can anyone justify having guns in public?
    Also giving you the benefit of a very strong doubt that you are here to discuss and not just to throw out the anti-gun party line:

    Because "MURICA!

    In other words, the notions of freedom and individuality as "citizens" that still (barely) separate us from the abject surrender as "subjects" to The State. Perhaps you are aware of the way in which we Americans refer to the UK as (formerly)Great Britain? Perhaps you are aware of why we do that?

    Americans are not going to go out armed with their fowling pieces and hunting rifles to stand up against their "professional" army because they do have their fowling pieces and hunting rifles, along with their target and plinking pieces - and a cultural memory of how we slaughtered (yes, that's the appropriate term) the British troops marching in full retreat from Concord, and because our "professional" military shares that cultural memory.

    The discussion should be focused on what and how instructors can do to prevent a recurrance of this event. It has been mentioned that it is not the first time instructor failure to control a neophyte shooter's firearm has resulted in a death. Saying we should melt down all our guns will not prevent a recurrance because there is no likelihood we will melt down all our guns. That being the case, we need to focus on how instructors can improve their ability to ensure a safe shooting experience.

    Automobiles kill and maim more people than do firearms. Why are you not calling for the abolution of automobiles? More children under the age of 12 die from drowning in 5-gallon pails than are injured in any way by firearms. Why are you not calling for the destruction of 5-gallon pails? Given your position regarding firearms, your failure to "champion" those causes is hypocracy.

    stay safe.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ady Miles View Post
    what the hell is a 9 year old doing at a shooting range with an Uzi?!? crazy idiots

    the age limit should be 21+ not 8+

    that said, why should anyone need to learn how to shoot an Uzi machine-gun anyway?

    hundreds of innocent men, women and children die every year in the USA from attacks by crazed idiots or through accidents like this - how the hell can anyone justify having guns in public?
    I am not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are a troll.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Also giving you the benefit of a very strong doubt ...
    To their credit, they have added their location to their profile (UK, which helps explain the initial ignorance (not their fault) and aversion); and while I was doing the first reply, they edited their post with an additional comment.

    So, I hope we get an actual dialogue.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-27-2014 at 04:00 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    On a related note, especially to British interests, is the British soldier that was killed by his best friend and fellow soldier because of the complete lack of firearms training to British youth, until they are handed an assault rifle at the age of 18 and shipped overseas with obviously insufficient training.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ghanistan.html
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Also giving you the benefit of a very strong doubt that you are here to discuss and not just to throw out the anti-gun party line:

    Because "MURICA!

    In other words, the notions of freedom and individuality as "citizens" that still (barely) separate us from the abject surrender as "subjects" to The State. Perhaps you are aware of the way in which we Americans refer to the UK as (formerly)Great Britain? Perhaps you are aware of why we do that?

    Americans are not going to go out armed with their fowling pieces and hunting rifles to stand up against their "professional" army because they do have their fowling pieces and hunting rifles, along with their target and plinking pieces - and a cultural memory of how we slaughtered (yes, that's the appropriate term) the British troops marching in full retreat from Concord, and because our "professional" military shares that cultural memory.

    The discussion should be focused on what and how instructors can do to prevent a recurrance of this event. It has been mentioned that it is not the first time instructor failure to control a neophyte shooter's firearm has resulted in a death. Saying we should melt down all our guns will not prevent a recurrance because there is no likelihood we will melt down all our guns. That being the case, we need to focus on how instructors can improve their ability to ensure a safe shooting experience.

    Automobiles kill and maim more people than do firearms. Why are you not calling for the abolution of automobiles? More children under the age of 12 die from drowning in 5-gallon pails than are injured in any way by firearms. Why are you not calling for the destruction of 5-gallon pails? Given your position regarding firearms, your failure to "champion" those causes is hypocracy.

    stay safe.

    stay safe.


    I heard a marching snare drum in my head as I read this, followed by a bald eagle's piercing shrill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    A sad happening for sure.

    Done properly I don't see any thing wrong with it .

    I had by children sho0t a MP5 about that age. No trouble well controlled kids had a blast.

    Don't think I ever put more then 5 or 6 rounds in the mag at a time just enough for a couple of bursts.

    I believe I had a hand involved also but it has been more the 20 years ago.

    Would I have a child do it again yes. The thing is not to get relaxed one has to be on top of things for sure.

    Familiarity some times breeds contempt it is easy to fall into bad habits it things have always went right.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I heard a marching snare drum in my head as I read this, followed by a bald eagle's piercing shrill.
    Give a listen to this retired marine:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0fQd858cRc

    Sorry 'bout the off topic nature of this, but wanted to share in light of The Truth's reply.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Man this is really not good. I'd say blame goes about 95% instructor 5% parents. Horrible that this girl will have to deal with this the rest of her life because of unsafe practices.
    Would you explain why you blame the parents? Also are we talking the child's parents or the instructor's parents. Hard to know which you meant when blaming either seems equally ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Would you explain why you blame the parents? Also are we talking the child's parents or the instructor's parents. Hard to know which you meant when blaming either seems equally ridiculous.
    Well, the parents automatically get some of the blame, de facto, simply for having chosen the now-deceased instructor. He gets most of it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Would you explain why you blame the parents? Also are we talking the child's parents or the instructor's parents. Hard to know which you meant when blaming either seems equally ridiculous.
    I believe he meant the children's parents.
    Why? I'd say it is because they gave permission for the child to shoot a relatively high-recoil weapon when they should have known that heavy recoil + weak muscles (a child's muscles relative to the adults the gun was designed for) could translate into "difficult to control".

    Just like with the story of the lady who shot herself in the head when shooting a huge revolver: newcomers shouldn't be expected to know how to handle the recoil and instructors/husbands should remember that SAFETY is paramount to the giggle factor of putting a video on YouTube.

    If they didn't know about the recoil and the behaviour of full-auto, I wonder why they wouldn't ask to test it out first before allowing their child to; "let's see if this soup is too hot" *slurp* "It's alright honey." "Let's see how this feels" *burst fire/ full-auto fire* [to instructor] "I don't know if she can handle this".
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 08-27-2014 at 09:23 PM.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Would you explain why you blame the parents? Also are we talking the child's parents or the instructor's parents. Hard to know which you meant when blaming either seems equally ridiculous.
    Pretty much what marshaul said.

    I don't think it's ridiculous at all to place 5% (pretty arbitrary number meant to signify "a little") of the blame on the girl's parents (not sure how anyone could blame the instructor's parents, since he is a military veteran and an adult). I have a daughter, and I can't wait until she's old enough to understand firearms and safety so that we can go shooting together. I also love guns and am a firm supporter of Constitutional Carry nationwide, and no I'm not going to cry "make it illegal!" I've shot guns my whole life, many different calibers and models. That being said, I would never let my daughter go full auto at 9 years old. The girl weighed what, 45-55 lbs. probably? Uzis are extremely light making recoil troublesome for smaller framed people.

    Full auto with more than 4 or 5 rounds in the mag + not paying attention for a split second = Darwin award winner + parents of the year. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's irresponsible.

    IMHO of course. What's good for my daughter and me isn't good for everyone and I accept that. This is a horrible accident, and a rare one at that.
    Last edited by The Truth; 08-27-2014 at 09:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    The parents put their child in the care of some one they understood to be an expert on the activity.
    There is no blame on the parents any more than if they allowed their child to take the bus and the bus driver crashed.

    ETA... the comparison isn't great but the idea is there.
    Last edited by twoskinsonemanns; 08-27-2014 at 10:05 PM.
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