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Thread: NEVADA: Form a Panel for Government Presentations?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    NEVADA: Form a Panel for Government Presentations?

    I'd like to get on some agendas to present our positions of OC and gun laws in general here in Nevada, starting with Clark County regarding park prohibitions, handgun registration, and CCW permitting in general. My impetus for now is the park prohibitions because I do a lot of bicycle riding and the paths often take me through the county parks.

    Would anyone be interested in forming a panel to develop a strategy for taking on public agencies? Ideally I'd love to see a primary presenter, a few follow-ups, an attorney, and lots of audience support. If we could carry into the meetings then better yet. I wouldn't want to do it without plans of following up with legal action if necessary.

    My thought is that we could speak out during open speech sessions or ask to be put on an agenda to present our point of view. I'd prefer if we could form a workshop with the officials so we could cover the topics more broadly.

    I'd also like to video tape our presentations for public enlightenment.

    I'm happy to take the lead on the presentation while taking a 'friend of the board' approach (low key yet authoritative). I've been involved in public efforts in the past including taking the lead on the recall of several elected officials over a taxation matter in Kalifornia years ago (they were all gone soon thereafter). I've done my share of talk radio and television over the years.

    Any thoughts?

    Let me explain where I'm at and how I got here.

    I've been a gun owner most of my life, starting with a Firearms Safety Permit when I was 14 years old so I could go big game hunting with my dad. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest but moved to Kalifornia a few decades back. I occasionally considered a CCW but at some point the laws became so convoluted that I feared the laws more than the bad guys.

    Sad to say but true. I left the Left State in '08 and started sleeping with a shotgun after a serious threat on my life a few years later. I've been a business owner most of my life and have had many reasons to carry but again declined despite carrying large amounts of cash for my business and the threats mentioned above. My business takes me across several states at a time (driving) and that's even more convoluted when it comes to carrying firearms (instant criminal).

    So my desire to carry on behalf of myself and the public at large had moments of both emergence and retreat several times over the years.

    But like a lot of people here in Las Vegas, I eat at Cici's Pizza on occasion and shop regularly at Walmart. I was a firefighter for years and half my friends at one point were cops and a few are now here in Nevada. I attended the funeral of Joseph Robert Wilcox and it was quite moving, attended by more LEO's than non. (For those who aren't aware, we had two Metro police officers executed at Cici's Pizza recently and the gunmen fled to Walmart where Wilcox, a CCW carrier, confronted them before being gunned down by an accomplice. The police took down the perp's shortly thereafter).

    So I decided it was time to check into Nevada's laws. I wasn't even aware that you could OC in Nevada at that point in time. We need to get the word out. I've given a lot of thought and research to OC vs. CCW and have concluded that I'd probably prefer concealed. But I have real issues with the CCW process. OC clearly has its disadvantages as well as its benefits.

    That's another thread.

    My passion is to take the repressiveness of gun laws head-on and do all we can to move to national Constitutional Carry (think Arizona). I know there are a lot of people like myself who fear becoming instant criminals because they're exercising their Constitutional rights. I believe that reasonable people can present reasonable arguments that can sway board members and officials who probably haven't given it a lot of thought before now.

    I call it the 'good guys with guns' concept. I like OC because it DOES educate and motivate others to exercise their rights along the way, as well as providing motivation for the bad guys to dissipate into the fringes. My goal is to get a massive amount of good guys to carry a gun with an emphasis on solid training and education (not mandated by law). Wouldn't it be great if the local rec departments offered complimentary firearms training courses, just as they've done with archery in the days of old?

    I have friends who are police officers, licensed personal security bodyguards, shooting range professionals, and long time CCW holders here in Las Vegas, many of whom may want to contribute to this project. I'm integrally involved with the film and TV community here in Vegas and plan to document our progress along the way.

    I'd really love to know if anyone has an attorney friend who has a 2nd Amendment passion who'd prefer to join our effort. I'm not sure how big this Nevada group really is so let's find out where we stand for now.

    Looking forward to your thoughts and input!

    Ron_O

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    I'd like to get on some agendas to present our positions of OC and gun laws in general here in Nevada, starting with Clark County regarding park prohibitions, handgun registration, and CCW permitting in general. My impetus for now is the park prohibitions because I do a lot of bicycle riding and the paths often take me through the county parks.

    Would anyone be interested in forming a panel to develop a strategy for taking on public agencies? Ideally I'd love to see a primary presenter, a few follow-ups, an attorney, and lots of audience support. If we could carry into the meetings then better yet. I wouldn't want to do it without plans of following up with legal action if necessary.

    My thought is that we could speak out during open speech sessions or ask to be put on an agenda to present our point of view. I'd prefer if we could form a workshop with the officials so we could cover the topics more broadly.

    I'd also like to video tape our presentations for public enlightenment.

    I'm happy to take the lead on the presentation while taking a 'friend of the board' approach (low key yet authoritative). I've been involved in public efforts in the past including taking the lead on the recall of several elected officials over a taxation matter in Kalifornia years ago (they were all gone soon thereafter). I've done my share of talk radio and television over the years.

    Any thoughts?

    Let me explain where I'm at and how I got here.

    I've been a gun owner most of my life, starting with a Firearms Safety Permit when I was 14 years old so I could go big game hunting with my dad. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest but moved to Kalifornia a few decades back. I occasionally considered a CCW but at some point the laws became so convoluted that I feared the laws more than the bad guys.

    Sad to say but true. I left the Left State in '08 and started sleeping with a shotgun after a serious threat on my life a few years later. I've been a business owner most of my life and have had many reasons to carry but again declined despite carrying large amounts of cash for my business and the threats mentioned above. My business takes me across several states at a time (driving) and that's even more convoluted when it comes to carrying firearms (instant criminal).

    So my desire to carry on behalf of myself and the public at large had moments of both emergence and retreat several times over the years.

    But like a lot of people here in Las Vegas, I eat at Cici's Pizza on occasion and shop regularly at Walmart. I was a firefighter for years and half my friends at one point were cops and a few are now here in Nevada. I attended the funeral of Joseph Robert Wilcox and it was quite moving, attended by more LEO's than non. (For those who aren't aware, we had two Metro police officers executed at Cici's Pizza recently and the gunmen fled to Walmart where Wilcox, a CCW carrier, confronted them before being gunned down by an accomplice. The police took down the perp's shortly thereafter).

    So I decided it was time to check into Nevada's laws. I wasn't even aware that you could OC in Nevada at that point in time. We need to get the word out. I've given a lot of thought and research to OC vs. CCW and have concluded that I'd probably prefer concealed. But I have real issues with the CCW process. OC clearly has its disadvantages as well as its benefits.

    That's another thread.

    My passion is to take the repressiveness of gun laws head-on and do all we can to move to national Constitutional Carry (think Arizona). I know there are a lot of people like myself who fear becoming instant criminals because they're exercising their Constitutional rights. I believe that reasonable people can present reasonable arguments that can sway board members and officials who probably haven't given it a lot of thought before now.

    I call it the 'good guys with guns' concept. I like OC because it DOES educate and motivate others to exercise their rights along the way, as well as providing motivation for the bad guys to dissipate into the fringes. My goal is to get a massive amount of good guys to carry a gun with an emphasis on solid training and education (not mandated by law). Wouldn't it be great if the local rec departments offered complimentary firearms training courses, just as they've done with archery in the days of old?

    I have friends who are police officers, licensed personal security bodyguards, shooting range professionals, and long time CCW holders here in Las Vegas, many of whom may want to contribute to this project. I'm integrally involved with the film and TV community here in Vegas and plan to document our progress along the way.

    I'd really love to know if anyone has an attorney friend who has a 2nd Amendment passion who'd prefer to join our effort. I'm not sure how big this Nevada group really is so let's find out where we stand for now.

    Looking forward to your thoughts and input!

    Ron_O
    Let me just give you some stuff to ponder. We on this forum have a long history of going after Clark County trying to get them to see the error of their ways. (Search the topic) The bottom line is this. Clark County officials just don't care what the law is. They have made it clear that they will do what ever it takes to keep their illegal systems in place.

    Las Vegas abolished their park ordinance against firearms carry and wrote a new one allowing CC. As they had exactly NO authority under state preemption to write a new law, there is legally no prohibition against carry in LV city parks. (Test case anyone?)

    Henderson was pushed kicking n screaming into admitting that their ordinance had no teeth and have quit enforcing it though they still have them "on the books" despite repeated promises by the last two City Attorneys that they will remove them.

    Boulder City, no problem as their City Attorney admitted they have no authority under state law.

    I don't have much hope that Clark Co laws will get overturned by the state as the Sheriff and County officials have a lot of power up north. It is my opinion that the only method of overturning Clark, LV and NLV illegal ordinances are going to be test cases.

    I believe that if we can put Henderson in its place with regard to registration, we can then find a way to go after NLV as their ordinance does not meet preemption, then that kind of leaves CC and LV standing alone. In other words we surround them.

    Henderson registration test case
    LV parks test case
    NLV registration test case

    Don't look for State or National gun rights organizations to help, I've gone that route. We do this ourselves or it won't get done.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Regular Member garand_guy's Avatar
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    I'd be willing to lend the support of NevadaCarry.org

    I'll be a test case just as soon as I am financially independent!
    Nevada Carry and Frontier Carry

    Helpful guide to gun laws in the Intermountain West

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    It feels like everyone's been poking holes in the dike while what really needs to be done is to blow the damn thing up. There are a lot of ways to do it and board meetings and litigation are not the only approaches to take. TV is a great medium and tool and an all-out media campaign here in the valley is a good way to open things up.

    Most people don't know you can OC or they stay away from the subject out of basic fear and ignorance. We can take on a public education approach by making ourselves highly visible, be it OC rallies, challenging the governing bodies, promoting training, and holding some open forums at strategic locations to help bring people up to speed. That creates a media buzz and gives lots of opportunities for TV, radio, and web news interviews. I've done a lot of them. As tragic as it's been I think we can use the Cici's police slayings to open awareness for the need for average good guys to carry guns. What if several of the patrons of Cici's were openly carrying? The Sheriff reported that the male half of the duo first walked into Cici's to survey the situation before returning to attack the police. We all know that if guns are commonplace then crime rates go down.

    We can literally create a trend that will make the subject more current so the governing boards will lighten up a bit and do what they always do, pay attention to public pressure.

    If we can remove the roadblocks here in Clark County (parks, NLV vehicles, libraries, registration, etc.) then maybe we can push for a full Constitutional Carry similar to AZ's. We have to demonstrate some STRENGTH to make them pay attention. I've done some extensive reading on your past posts and progress, including reading the entire thread with the Henderson City Hall and Parks issues (awesome job!), and though I admire your persistence, patience, and diligence, I can't believe how much time passed before anything got done, including the fact that the statutes are still on the books. On my bike rides I now regularly check the parks to verify that the restrictions are taped over or removed. Nice to see evidence of the fruits of your labor.

    With the public agencies we have to be able to back our requests with the threat of very real litigation, and the publicity that goes along with that. We have to stress that we have no desire to incur extra expense for the public coffers but will have no choice should they not play ball. I know you know all of this but now it's gotten personal with me because these laws are infuriating me more with every hour of research I do. The more I look into it, the more insulting it gets.

    I'd rather concealed carry because I prefer to keep my hand secret (I'm a poker player) but I honestly don't know that I can bring myself to go through the process of making it happen because I find it so intrusive, repulsive, overbearing, and anti-Constitutional. It's idiotic in it's premise in that we can openly carry anytime but if it's hidden then we're treated as criminals, when we all know the criminals won't bother applying. You all know how I feel.

    Years ago while living in the Left State we ran ads for our causes and they were pretty reasonably priced. I honestly think we could develop a 'Good Guys Carry Guns' educational campaign and try to create a buzz while educating. We could develop some basic 30 second spots for television and radio and do some fundraisers to make it happen. I can think of a lot of businesses who'd have an interest in promoting our cause.

    Regarding test cases, I'd want to hear from an attorney but I think we have 'standing' simply in the fact that we reside in or regularly frequent the areas in question and we feel that our Constitutional rights are being violated when in those areas. I don't think we have to get ourselves arrested to have a cause of action. Do we instead have to get SHOT while driving through NLV unarmed and end up suing NLV in the process, because we were unarmed? God forbid. We are left with the choice of violating their statute or risking our own safety.

    The FILING of the cases is not all that expensive. I can't imagine that there'd be a lot of discovery so it'd really just have to get before a judge. It would undoubtedly head up the appellate chain and into US District Court if necessary, hence no need to worry about which cronies in Carson City have their fingers in things because it'd blow right past them. We may want to consider filing any actions directly into federal court rather than locally.

    My real push would be for a statewide Constitutional Carry statute that outlawed virtually every pre-existing statute in the state (including registration) and replaced them with a very simple and basic 2nd-A carry structure.

    We need to find an attorney who's on board with the issue and who could hope to make a name for him or her self in the process. Even some law school students with someone else who could take the lead when it comes to arguing the cases in court. I think if we can create a groundswell for OC then we can use it to persuade nervous legislators to unwind things altogether statewide. We're already pretty open so taking it to the next step may be simpler than we know. I'd like to research what steps the other states have taken to get things through the system.

    The fact doesn't change that it's a pretty daunting task to simply carry a gun anywhere in the state. So many intertwining laws and every reason to believe that sooner rather than later you'll be violating one of them. Look at The Big Guy's interaction at the library with the police once again coming into play. Most 'good guys' don't have to deal with police or threats of being tossed out of somewhere simply because they're exercising a long-forgotten right and that creates reluctance to get involved.
    Last edited by Ron_O; 08-28-2014 at 04:03 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    I







    Regarding test cases, I'd want to hear from an attorney but I think we have 'standing' simply in the fact that we reside in or regularly frequent the areas in question and we feel that our Constitutional rights are being violated when in those areas. I don't think we have to get ourselves arrested to have a cause of action. Do we instead have to get SHOT while driving through NLV unarmed and end up suing NLV in the process, because we were unarmed? God forbid. We are left with the choice of violating their statute or risking our own safety.
    Unfortunately the NRA tried to back a suit against NLV and it was kicked out for lack of standing. The only ways to have standing is either get arrested, or be directly threatened with arrest. There was another case dropped as well that you can read about on the forum.I have tried my best to get officials to threaten me with arrest and they are too smart to do it. The last thing county and city officials want is a test case. They will drop individual cases in order to keep it from going to court. They want to keep it on the books in order to grab the unwary. Existence of an ordinance is not grounds for litigation. It must affect you directly.

    You have some good ideas. We will win by bites. Lead and we will follow.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Unfortunately the NRA tried to back a suit against NLV and it was kicked out for lack of standing. The only ways to have standing is either get arrested, or be directly threatened with arrest. There was another case dropped as well that you can read about on the forum.I have tried my best to get officials to threaten me with arrest and they are too smart to do it. The last thing county and city officials want is a test case. They will drop individual cases in order to keep it from going to court. They want to keep it on the books in order to grab the unwary. Existence of an ordinance is not grounds for litigation. It must affect you directly.

    You have some good ideas. We will win by bites. Lead and we will follow.

    TBG
    If one wishes to take the local laws to task then standing is provided by an arrest. If your argument is a 2nd amendment one, then you can file in federal court without the need to be subjected to the possibility of a conviction ~ you can sue prior to an arrest.

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    Ron,
    IMO the best thing you can do is open carry. We have had rally's and such, the most effective way to teach, or make aware, is open carry normally while normally open carrying... Protests and rallies Are done by non mainstream folks. We are mainstream. We are not trying to legalize something, It is legal already, so why a rally?

    I would be interested to see your list of "Clear disadvanteges to OC"
    Last edited by DON`T TREAD ON ME; 09-01-2014 at 11:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post

    My real push would be for a statewide Constitutional Carry statute that outlawed virtually every pre-existing statute in the state (including registration) and replaced them with a very simple and basic 2nd-A carry structure.
    Preaching to the choir, bro.

    Our last two legislative sessions in Carson City have seen both Campus- and Constitutional-Carry bills presented (Assemblywoman Michele Fiore was a major author); predictably, those pro-gun bills were never even given a hearing on the floor (let alone a vote). Why? Because the dems control both state Assembly and Senate branches. Dem Committee Chairmen such as Jason Frierson (puke) and William Horne (double puke) have the power to block these bills from progressing anywhere, essentially killing them in the crib.

    What to do? Only way to pass pro-gun laws is to get rid of anti-gun lawmakers. They are the BIG obstacles. You're new to Nevada so in case you haven't heard, here's a partial list of NV anti-gun politicians: Justin C. Jones, "Tick" Segerbloom, Lesley Cohen, Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto, and the above-mentioned pukes. Those are the worst. But IMHO, the dems will always vote en block (with one or two "dissenting" if they know in advance they have enough votes to win). The more dems we can defeat, the better chance we have to repeal these anti-gun laws.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post

    Unfortunately the NRA tried to back a suit against NLV and it was kicked out for lack of standing. The only ways to have standing is either get arrested, or be directly threatened with arrest. There was another case dropped as well that you can read about on the forum.

    I have tried my best to get officials to threaten me with arrest and they are too smart to do it. The last thing county and city officials want is a test case.

    They will drop individual cases in order to keep it from going to court. They want to keep it on the books in order to grab the unwary.

    Existence of an ordinance is not grounds for litigation. It must affect you directly.

    You have some good ideas. We will win by bites. Lead and we will follow.

    TBG
    TBG regarding the first highlighted section, maybe we can set you up by calling in a 'man with guns in his car' at XYZ Burgerhaus and seeing what type of response it can generate (maybe you've tried that). Just one more way of poking a finger in their eye.

    Regarding the second highlighted section, whenever we have to ALTER our behavior because of a law then it DOES affect us directly. If I carry in my vehicle everywhere I go then I'm left with a choice to avoid NLV, disarm, or break the law. Do they expect everyone to walk to the precinct to register their guns rather than drive them in? Clearly a violation of my rights of free passage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Ron,

    I would be interested to see your list of "Clear disadvanteges to OC"
    I'll name a few.

    I was OC'ing while heading to a guy's house to buy some gym equipment he had on Craigslist. When I rolled out of my door the neighbor across the street immediately saw my weapon; I didn't keep watching for a reaction. I shook the seller's hand and as I did he saw the weapon at my side, glancing down and then hurriedly moving to the unit I was buying. I tried to ignore the fact that I was carrying.

    But the fact is that everywhere we go either we or others are aware that we are carrying and that tends to alter the relationship and interaction. How would that guy have felt if the unit was in his home rather than his garage? With a CCW he wouldn't have known the difference. With an OC he does and may have denied me entrance unless I presented a badge.

    The same is true wherever we go. I prefer a light, casual, airy, friendly rapport with the people I meet and deal with. Having a gun on your hip tends to change that. People are put on alert, as they should be. I don't want some guy I've never met coming into my house while open carrying. It just CHANGES things.

    Next, I'd rather go through my day without putting people on alert and having to continually be aware of or deal with that. I know we need to so don't jump me for that, it's just an added element that I'd rather avoid.

    Third, I don't always want to be wary of who may want to steal my firearm while I'm out in public, despite retentions. I CERTAINLY don't want to be targeted for attack because some thug(s) sees me as an opportunity to gain a weapon by force.

    Fourth, I don't want to be a primary takedown target for a bad guy who's planning to execute a crime.

    Fifth, I prefer stealth and don't want to tip my hand. I'd prefer to be able to maneuver as needed before deploying my weapon if need be. As a poker player I prefer to keep my hand close to my vest (or table).

    In other words, I want to go about my life as I have forever while knowing that I'm carrying should a need arise, just as I've done for decades while knowing that I have the PHYSICAL means and training to protect myself if need be. I don't advertise what I'm capable of, I just do my thing and carry myself accordingly.

    I won't go into the ADVANTAGES of OC because that wasn't asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    If one wishes to take the local laws to task then standing is provided by an arrest. If your argument is a 2nd amendment one, then you can file in federal court without the need to be subjected to the possibility of a conviction ~ you can sue prior to an arrest.
    This is my approach as well. I believe in taking it to the source based on what we already have. If people don't like the 2nd Amendment then they need to amend or remove it. But while it's there, just like with freedom of speech, they need to stop trying to infringe on us and just let it be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulleteater View Post
    Preaching to the choir, bro.

    Our last two legislative sessions in Carson City have seen both Campus- and Constitutional-Carry bills presented (Assemblywoman Michele Fiore was a major author); predictably, those pro-gun bills were never even given a hearing on the floor (let alone a vote). Why? Because the dems control both state Assembly and Senate branches. Dem Committee Chairmen such as Jason Frierson (puke) and William Horne (double puke) have the power to block these bills from progressing anywhere, essentially killing them in the crib.

    What to do? Only way to pass pro-gun laws is to get rid of anti-gun lawmakers. They are the BIG obstacles. You're new to Nevada so in case you haven't heard, here's a partial list of NV anti-gun politicians: Justin C. Jones, "Tick" Segerbloom, Lesley Cohen, Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto, and the above-mentioned pukes. Those are the worst. But IMHO, the dems will always vote en block (with one or two "dissenting" if they know in advance they have enough votes to win). The more dems we can defeat, the better chance we have to repeal these anti-gun laws.
    Again, if we leave it up to them then the Dems have control over our rights. Dems may control the body until hell freezes over despite our most aggressive and valiant efforts, but in the meantime our rights are denied. The courts can be just as slow. Public visibility, pressure, and support is the name of the game, as well as the courts and elections. We MAY be able to pressure people out of office or get them replaced, but considering the fact that this state continues to re-elect the disgrace known as Harry Reid, I have to say that I don't have a lot of confidence in the voting public ever 'seeing the light'.

    We have to bring the issue really close to home to change the hearts and minds of the voters, picking our battles and strategies wisely. I really think that if we stress responsibility and professional TRAINING and apply it to everyday incidents of violence then we can move things along exponentially. If an educated public begins to see these guys as a roadblock to their own rights and freedoms then things should change.

    I think we're in the catbird's seat here in Las Vegas, as it relates to Nevadan rights, and we can plant and nurture some well planned-out seeds that can really take root if we execute properly. We need an informed and educated population.

    I'm a big-picture guy and am still trying to see the entire structure while forming a game plan. I think we need visibility and exposure while educating and informing an ignorant and complacent public.

    As a final thought, can you imagine telling people that they can't go into a park to pray, or gather with their Meetup group, or speak out against their elected officials? "You can pray but only if it's silent and in small groups while reading from a pre-approved written format". It's our job to show the public that our 2A rights are just as relevant as any of the others. Can the governing bodies be so presumptuous as to determine where our safety will or will not be at risk?

    That's preposterous...
    Last edited by Ron_O; 09-04-2014 at 05:55 PM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    TBG regarding the first highlighted section, maybe we can set you up by calling in a 'man with guns in his car' at XYZ Burgerhaus and seeing what type of response it can generate (maybe you've tried that). Just one more way of poking a finger in their eye.

    Regarding the second highlighted section, whenever we have to ALTER our behavior because of a law then it DOES affect us directly. If I carry in my vehicle everywhere I go then I'm left with a choice to avoid NLV, disarm, or break the law. Do they expect everyone to walk to the precinct to register their guns rather than drive them in? Clearly a violation of my rights of free passage.
    Calling me in on a MWAG would do no good as the Henderson PD seems to be trained now to not respond to such calls unless there is an immediate and eminent threat.

    I would not answer their questions nor allow them to disarm me. Am I under arrest? AM I being detained? No? Then blow. They are not going to detain me or arrest me for just sitting eating a burger.

    As far as affecting us directly, the courts don't agree with you.

    NLV carry in the car is no longer a concern unless you are doing something else, and if they do grab you for it, they will drop the charges if you fight it.

    The problem with fighting in federal court on rights violations is the experience needed to pursue the case, and the cost of conducting it. In my opinion, for what it's worth, you would have to have a very strong case in order to keep a judge from outright tossing it out. I think the 2A fight isn't going to work anyway. The NV Constitution is much stronger.

    If you want to play it out in federal court I have what I think is a much better idea, and we all should have standing, as we have been forced to register under "blue card." Why not file a 14th amendment case in that we in Clark County are held to a different standard from the rest of the state. State law allows Clark County, and only Clark County, to register firearms. The rest of the state cannot under state law. We are not equal citizens with the rest of the state. We would need a strong state association, which we don't have, or a national association to back a class action suit and they have shown no interest in doing so. Anyone have real deep pockets?

    Also in my opinion we will win with nibbles, not gulps. Gulps cost too much and lays it all on the line, win or lose.

    I know that most of us would like to go in with paperwork blazing and hammer them into submission with a single blow, but my experience tells me that is not going to happen. We must pick our battles so that the final outcome is to win the war. I'm not saying to sit back, but keep after them from many angles. It is easier for them to fight one big war then multiple small battles. Surround them and make them cry uncle. In other words, pester them into submission. That tactic has worked for me so far.

    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 09-04-2014 at 06:47 PM.
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Calling me in on a MWAG would do no good as the Henderson PD seems to be trained now to not respond to such calls unless there is an immediate and eminent threat.

    I would not answer their questions nor allow them to disarm me. Am I under arrest? AM I being detained? No? Then blow. They are not going to detain me or arrest me for just sitting eating a burger.

    TBG
    Actually I was thinking about doing that MWAG call with NLV, not Henderson, knowing they may try to follow and detain you for firearms in your vehicle. Seems that would give you standing.

    Cameras and mics in the car and surrounding area.

    I'll comment on the rest later but if we opt to go the federal 2A litigation route then we could do an all-encompassing action and let the courts decide which arguments had standing and which did not.
    Last edited by Ron_O; 09-04-2014 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post

    Next, I'd rather go through my day without putting people on alert and having to continually be aware of or deal with that. I know we need to so don't jump me for that, it's just an added element that I'd rather avoid.


    In other words, I want to go about my life as I have forever while knowing that I'm carrying should a need arise, just as I've done for decades while knowing that I have the PHYSICAL means and training to protect myself if need be. I don't advertise what I'm capable of, I just do my thing and carry myself accordingly.


    It's our job to show the public that our 2A rights are just as relevant as any of the others.

    Since permissive carry CCW is not a right, it infringes on the 2A- While many of us are forced to CCW the 2A supporters do it with gritted teeth. How does concealing "show the public that our 2A rights (not being exercised) are relevant? Why would we think we could convince someone else the relevance of a right, we ourselves find annoying and to troublesome to exercise, according to your post.

    It appears to me that you have little or no experience with OC (I read your list of negatives) If you would like to become informed, I am sure myself and others would be happy to OC with you, I believe it would be an eye opening and worthwhile experience!

  13. #13
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    Actually I was thinking about doing that MWAG call with NLV, not Henderson, knowing they may try to follow and detain you for firearms in your vehicle. Seems that would give you standing.

    Cameras and mics in the car and surrounding area.

    I'll comment on the rest later but if we opt to go the federal 2A litigation route then we could do an all-encompassing action and let the courts decide which arguments had standing and which did not.
    Sorry to keep telling you different but that is not likely to work in NLV. I have twice had, that I know of, where NLVPD has seen me get in my vehicle. First they would have to have probable cause to pull me over. How would they know that I was not on my way to a shooting range (eventually)? Which is an exception to the law. As I stated before, NLV will drop the charges if you fight it. At that point you would have to show real harm.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post



    I'll name a few.

    I was OC'ing while heading to a guy's house to buy some gym equipment he had on Craigslist. When I rolled out of my door the neighbor across the street immediately saw my weapon; I didn't keep watching for a reaction. I shook the seller's hand and as I did he saw the weapon at my side, glancing down and then hurriedly moving to the unit I was buying. I tried to ignore the fact that I was carrying.

    But the fact is that everywhere we go either we or others are aware that we are carrying and that tends to alter the relationship and interaction. How would that guy have felt if the unit was in his home rather than his garage? With a CCW he wouldn't have known the difference. With an OC he does and may have denied me entrance unless I presented a badge.

    The same is true wherever we go. I prefer a light, casual, airy, friendly rapport with the people I meet and deal with. Having a gun on your hip tends to change that. People are put on alert, as they should be. I don't want some guy I've never met coming into my house while open carrying. It just CHANGES things.

    Next, I'd rather go through my day without putting people on alert and having to continually be aware of or deal with that. I know we need to so don't jump me for that, it's just an added element that I'd rather avoid.

    Third, I don't always want to be wary of who may want to steal my firearm while I'm out in public, despite retentions. I CERTAINLY don't want to be targeted for attack because some thug(s) sees me as an opportunity to gain a weapon by force.

    Fourth, I don't want to be a primary takedown target for a bad guy who's planning to execute a crime.

    Fifth, I prefer stealth and don't want to tip my hand. I'd prefer to be able to maneuver as needed before deploying my weapon if need be. As a poker player I prefer to keep my hand close to my vest (or table).

    I really am tired of this s h it . This is a OC forum. So 99% of us have heard that bull sh it before. Also many of us have been here for a long time and have made good ground for our rights. NLV, Henderson etc all not a problem. Many of us carry in those places all the time with no issue.
    Last edited by Vegassteve; 09-04-2014 at 09:30 PM.

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    I gotta agree with vegassteve and TBG.

    Open carry? No one really cares. And if they do, F--- them. There is an occasion to CC and if that's your preference, more power to you. But I prefer to OC.

    Open carry (in NV) is a lifestyle, not just a cause. Some of us take it up because we support the 2nd Amendment and it's our best way to do it. But OC here is about protecting yourself first, and making a statement second. By doing what is normal and natural to protect ourselves (open carry), we make a statement and intervene where there is wrong done to us.

    Why go looking for trouble? We are doing nothing wrong. If trouble finds us, we will deal with the issue in a manner worth of a responsible, reasonable, and educated American.

    I agree with TBG. Piece by piece, we will win. Keep up the pressure in the state. America stands or falls based upon it's states and only is a federation because 13 colonies decided to band together rather than go it alone. Fight for Nevada's hearts and minds; the government is just the government, it's not the people.

    Ecc 1:4 "[Governments] come and go, but the earth abides."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    ....Again, if we leave it up to them then the Dems have control over our rights. Dems may control the body until hell freezes over despite our most aggressive and valiant efforts, but in the meantime our rights are denied. The courts can be just as slow. Public visibility, pressure, and support is the name of the game, as well as the courts and elections. We MAY be able to pressure people out of office or get them replaced, but considering the fact that this state continues to re-elect the disgrace known as Harry Reid, I have to say that I don't have a lot of confidence in the voting public ever 'seeing the light'....
    Yeah, we have Harry Reid, and guess what? Arizona has John McCain (who supports Universal Bkgrd Checks even as he represents a Constitutional Carry state, look it up). Why do folks in AZ keep electing him???

    Point is, there are stinking "politishuns" everywhere, not just in Nevada.

    As for "public visibility" we have untold numbers of gun-owners in Nevada but most of them prefer to cover their weapons like a dirty secret.

    How do you change perception if you choose to remain INVISIBLE???


    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    ...We have to bring the issue really close to home to change the hearts and minds of the voters, picking our battles and strategies wisely....
    Big Takeaway from the Ferguson Riots: cops won't be there to protect you when the SHTF. Safety and security are YOUR responsibility.

    How do we get that message out, if it hasn't already dawned on the sheeple?

  17. #17
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    OK it's been a long week and weekend but I need to get to it here a bit. I realize that some of you haven't had the time to read or digest most of my other posts so I'll recap a bit here now before touching on some pertinent points.

    I've been a gun owner most of my life, primarily relating to hunting. I wasn't even aware that we could OC in Nevada, despite being here for more than three years. I've never really bought into the OC mentality; seemed too risky and 'cowboy-ish', though I admired those who did it.

    I've considered CCW over the years but the fear of the law, of becoming an instant criminal due to so many conflicting laws, was greater than my fear of the bad guys. I was raised in the NW but lived in Cali for a couple of decades while owning businesses.

    The execution of two of our finest here in Las Vegas at Cici's Pizza, as well as hero CCW citizen Joseph Robert Wilcox in Walmart, brought this back to the surface for me and I was forced to examine my primary concerns of being subjected to all of the convoluted overlapping laws that have held me back for so many years. The Wilcox funeral was quite challenging. I started researching our right to carry online and it struck a chord with me. I've been involved with TV and film here in LV for the past few years and asked to produce and direct a couple of TV projects as a result.

    On researching this issue I realized that I had to shift my focus to producing a product who's focus was to inform and change the hearts and minds of Americans as they were confronted with this issue.

    I support Constitutional Freedom to Carry whether it's open or discreet. I think both have their place. I'll address other details below, but my FOCUS is on Constitutional Freedom to Carry, whether OC or CCW, and helping to inform average Americans on the truth of the 2nd Amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Calling me in on a MWAG would do no good as the Henderson PD seems to be trained now to not respond to such calls unless there is an immediate and eminent threat.

    I would not answer their questions nor allow them to disarm me. Am I under arrest? AM I being detained? No? Then blow. They are not going to detain me or arrest me for just sitting eating a burger.
    This case is to set them up (North Las Vegas, not Henderson). We'd want to play dumb, be the devil's advocate so to speak. NOT assert our rights. I'm curious as to how you would PREVENT THEM from disarming you if they were intent on violating your rights while holding you at gunpoint (speculative scenario)? I'm reminded of the current thread where the guy was disarmed in the park after the probation officer gave him a bad time.

    As far as affecting us directly, the courts don't agree with you.
    Courts are forever being challenged and overturned. The Supreme Court has proven this recently in several cases.

    NLV carry in the car is no longer a concern unless you are doing something else, and if they do grab you for it, they will drop the charges if you fight it.
    The fact is that the law is illegal and needs to go away, regardless of whether it's actively prosecuted. Ignoring it is not a solution, it only allows the victimization of others who are less informed.

    The problem with fighting in federal court on rights violations is the experience needed to pursue the case, and the cost of conducting it. In my opinion, for what it's worth, you would have to have a very strong case in order to keep a judge from outright tossing it out. I think the 2A fight isn't going to work anyway. The NV Constitution is much stronger.
    If we can't stand on the Constitution then what rights do we have? Nevada law is subservient to the USC when it comes to 2A statutes.

    If you want to play it out in federal court I have what I think is a much better idea, and we all should have standing, as we have been forced to register under "blue card." Why not file a 14th amendment case in that we in Clark County are held to a different standard from the rest of the state. State law allows Clark County, and only Clark County, to register firearms. The rest of the state cannot under state law. We are not equal citizens with the rest of the state. We would need a strong state association, which we don't have, or a national association to back a class action suit and they have shown no interest in doing so. Anyone have real deep pockets?
    As stated earlier, I think this is a great idea. I'm not worried about deep pockets (if you build it, they will come). To repeat, we need to build a Christmas tree full of 2A ornaments and let the courts decide which they'll allow and which to set aside. We need to powwow on the egregious statutes and include them all under 2A violations.

    Also in my opinion we will win with nibbles, not gulps. Gulps cost too much and lays it all on the line, win or lose.

    I know that most of us would like to go in with paperwork blazing and hammer them into submission with a single blow, but my experience tells me that is not going to happen. We must pick our battles so that the final outcome is to win the war. I'm not saying to sit back, but keep after them from many angles. It is easier for them to fight one big war then multiple small battles. Surround them and make them cry uncle. In other words, pester them into submission. That tactic has worked for me so far.

    TBG
    And you've been doing a great job!

    Canon blows are just that. We need BOTH canons and small arms. One doesn't pre-empt the other. Both have their place. My background encompasses both media and inside political experience. I at one time worked side by side with Kevin McCarthy who is now the Majority Leader of the U.S. Congress. We were both working inside several political campaigns in California in the mid 90's. I've been exposed to a lot of the 'source code' of what goes on inside. That included a lot of radio, print media, and TV interviews and exposure of political nature.

    The bottom line is that PEOPLE make those laws and they're no different than you and I. Challenging elected or appointed officials at board meetings can be highly effective, particularly when the facts and truth are in your corner.

    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Since permissive carry CCW is not a right, it infringes on the 2A- While many of us are forced to CCW the 2A supporters do it with gritted teeth. How does concealing "show the public that our 2A rights (not being exercised) are relevant? Why would we think we could convince someone else the relevance of a right, we ourselves find annoying and too troublesome to exercise, according to your post.

    It appears to me that you have little or no experience with OC (I read your list of negatives) If you would like to become informed, I am sure myself and others would be happy to OC with you, I believe it would be an eye opening and worthwhile experience!
    The fact is that I have been OC'ing, but not with your level of experience. I'm not leaning one way or the other, I simply voiced my thoughts based on the question asked. My primary concern is protection, not spreading the word, when it comes to my personal life. I spoke at length with a Front Sight instructor yesterday and he stated similar views, that sometimes he chooses to OC and others CCW, for specific reasons. I'm all for educating the public but prefer to do it in the usual way, through not only hands-on demonstration but more so through the media.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Sorry to keep telling you different but that is not likely to work in NLV. I have twice had, that I know of, where NLVPD has seen me get in my vehicle. First they would have to have probable cause to pull me over. How would they know that I was not on my way to a shooting range (eventually)? Which is an exception to the law. As I stated before, NLV will drop the charges if you fight it. At that point you would have to show real harm.

    TBG
    Then let's unplug a tail light on your car to give them PC and have you play a bit dumb by stating that you carry guns wherever you go and leave it at that. If we want a test case then let's give them one. Film and record it after setting them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    I really am tired of this s h it . This is a OC forum. So 99% of us have heard that bull sh it before. Also many of us have been here for a long time and have made good ground for our rights. NLV, Henderson etc all not a problem. Many of us carry in those places all the time with no issue.
    I agree with you Steve but I was only responding to DTOM's question. But just because an issue hasn't arisen doesn't mean it won't or hasn't arisen for others. The infringements need to go away. PLENTY have already been harmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by garand_guy View Post
    I gotta agree with vegassteve and TBG.

    Open carry? No one really cares. And if they do, F--- them. There is an occasion to CC and if that's your preference, more power to you. But I prefer to OC.

    Open carry (in NV) is a lifestyle, not just a cause. Some of us take it up because we support the 2nd Amendment and it's our best way to do it. But OC here is about protecting yourself first, and making a statement second. By doing what is normal and natural to protect ourselves (open carry), we make a statement and intervene where there is wrong done to us.

    Why go looking for trouble? We are doing nothing wrong. If trouble finds us, we will deal with the issue in a manner worth of a responsible, reasonable, and educated American.

    I agree with TBG. Piece by piece, we will win. Keep up the pressure in the state. America stands or falls based upon it's states and only is a federation because 13 colonies decided to band together rather than go it alone. Fight for Nevada's hearts and minds; the government is just the government, it's not the people.

    Ecc 1:4 "[Governments] come and go, but the earth abides."
    We need to overturn all of these laws that continually infringe on our rights. Ignoring them until they hit us close to home is not a solution, it's denial. The problem with a bite at a time is that it gives them more time and ways to create new bites. Look what's happening in D.C. right now. They're trying to craft new laws to replace the one that was just thrown out by the court (check NRA's website). Five states are now Constitutional Freedom to Carry and two others are nearly there (Montana and Texas) and we need to be number SIX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulleteater View Post
    Yeah, we have Harry Reid, and guess what? Arizona has John McCain (who supports Universal Bkgrd Checks even as he represents a Constitutional Carry state, look it up). Why do folks in AZ keep electing him???

    Point is, there are stinking "politishuns" everywhere, not just in Nevada.

    As for "public visibility" we have untold numbers of gun-owners in Nevada but most of them prefer to cover their weapons like a dirty secret.

    How do you change perception if you choose to remain INVISIBLE???

    Big Takeaway from the Ferguson Riots: cops won't be there to protect you when the SHTF. Safety and security are YOUR responsibility.

    How do we get that message out, if it hasn't already dawned on the sheeple?
    I'm not a supporter of McCain either; he's lost my support. That only proves that both parties can produce lemons. That's why we need to change hearts and minds and use the courts to nail down some positions. Visibility is easy to attain, and many times it's free at that.

    Current events (Bundy, Cici's slayings, Ferguson riots) create opportunities to tout our position and further our cause. We need to take the lead and capitalize on it.

    I've never advocated invisibility. I support the freedom to choose how we carry. I'm fully eligible for CCW but may never apply. My concern is our right to carry to begin with, regardless of our preferences of how we choose to do so.

  18. #18
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    Ron,

    I sincerely wish you luck as you embark on your journey. I will try to check on your progress from time to time.

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