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Thread: Question about Open carry on private property.

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    Question about Open carry on private property.

    So given the recent threats from ISIS about attacking in the US some men at my church brought up the idea of open carrying while on church property. There are already a few of us the conceal carry and the pastor has said from the pulpit in the past that if any men have concealed carry permits, they should carry while at church in case some crazy person decides to shoot the place up. The reason for open carry is so we could use full size service weapons that could be quickly deployed. Most of us wear dress clothes and are either pocket carrying or using a tuckable holster. So if the Pastor and deacons approved it would it be legal for members to open carry on the property? I'm sure the churches insurance would have an issue with it.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Excellent question. Perhaps fridaddy will opine.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    So if the Pastor and deacons approved it would it be legal for members to open carry on the property? I'm sure the churches insurance would have an issue with it.
    I don't beleive they have any say. The State dictates where you can OC. The only place I know of listed exceptions tot he ban on OC is 790.25, and unless you're fishing in the holy water... Maybe have a good old fashioned revival out by the lake?

    I think you'd have to be willing to challenge it in a Seperation of Church and State Supreme Court way... Which means someone would ahve to get arrested to have standing...
    Last edited by ixtow; 08-28-2014 at 04:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    I don't beleive they have any say. The State dictates where you can OC. The only place I know of listed exceptions tot he ban on OC is 790.25, and unless you're fishing in the holy water... Maybe have a good old fashioned revival out by the lake?

    I think you'd have to be willing to challenge it in a Seperation of Church and State Supreme Court way... Which means someone would ahve to get arrested to have standing...
    There is definitely a conflict between free speech and religion vs state gun law. this is a potential case if you wish to pursue it.

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    And by the way Adrich86, fridaddy is Eric Friday, Florida Carry's general counsel.

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    Thanks for the input guys. We definitely don't want this to turn into a court case... That's not the kind of attention that we would want and it really wouldn't help the Lord's work any. I guess we could always carry owb with a suit coat to cover it.


    One last question. If I were on a friends property out in the woods 4 wheeling or something and wanted to have rifle or handgun with me for protection would OC be legal since I have the property owners permission or is it still a no go since I'm not hunting, fishing or camping.
    Last edited by Adrich86; 08-28-2014 at 07:21 PM.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Nope. There isn't any provision in statute for a property owner to give permission for you to violate the law. You may legally open carry only under the exceptions in 790.25(3).

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    Thanks for the input guys. We definitely don't want this to turn into a court case... That's not the kind of attention that we would want and it really wouldn't help the Lord's work any.
    Hide behind God as an excuse to do nothing and let Satan win.

    When good men do nothing, knowing full-well the consequences of such; they cease to be good men.

    This is why I don't go to church. Note: lower-case "c."
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::
    One Sunday an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin.

    Although the old man and his clothes were clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn. He carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out Bible.

    The church was in a very upscale part of the city, the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were likewise upscale, dressed with the most expensive of clothes.

    As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were appalled at his appearance and didn't attempt to hide it. The preacher gave a long sermon and a lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work.

    As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worship." The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

    The next Sunday, he returned to the same church wearing the same ragged jeans. Again, the congregation shunned and ignored him. Again, the preacher approached him and said, "I thought I asked you to speak to God.... "

    "I did," replied the old cowboy.

    "What exactly did God say was the proper attire for worshiping here?" asked the preacher.

    "Well, sir, God told me that He didn't have a clue what I should wear. He says He's never been in this church."
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::
    I'd rather be down by the River looking like trash.
    Last edited by ixtow; 08-28-2014 at 03:51 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Hide behind God as an excuse to do nothing and let Satan win.

    When good men do nothing, knowing full-well the consequences of such; they cease to be good men.


    This is why I don't go to church. Note: lower-case "c."
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::
    One Sunday an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin.

    Although the old man and his clothes were clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn. He carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out Bible.

    The church was in a very upscale part of the city, the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were likewise upscale, dressed with the most expensive of clothes.

    As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were appalled at his appearance and didn't attempt to hide it. The preacher gave a long sermon and a lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work.

    As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worship." The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.

    The next Sunday, he returned to the same church wearing the same ragged jeans. Again, the congregation shunned and ignored him. Again, the preacher approached him and said, "I thought I asked you to speak to God.... "

    "I did," replied the old cowboy.

    "What exactly did God say was the proper attire for worshiping here?" asked the preacher.

    "Well, sir, God told me that He didn't have a clue what I should wear. He says He's never been in this church."
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::
    I'd rather be down by the River looking like trash.
    Whoa there buddy. We aren't hiding behind God for anything. Its not the mission of the church to get members arrested and fight legal battles in the State's supreme court. Our mission is outlined in the book of Mathew and its to WIN, BAPTIZE AND TEACH. Reaching people with the gospel of Christ is our only purpose. When I said we wear dress clothes I was referring to the few of us that CCW. Like I said in my previous post, we could always wear suit coats and OWB a full size handgun. Although it would be a hassle to wear a suit coat to church all the time.

    As for the rest of your story. I don't know where you got the idea we have a dress code... Well unless you show up naked or almost naked but most businesses would kick you out for that. I was raised to dress wearing my best clothes to go and worship God, after all you wouldn't go to meet the President( well maybe not the current president) wearing dirty old clothes if you didn't have too. Really wearing nice clothes is a matter of preference any way. God wants you to have a willing heart that's ready to learn. I typically wear jeans and a casual button up shirt on Wednesday night services which allow me to carry larger guns. Some men at the church come straight to work and wear their work uniforms.

    I'm sorry you've had a bad experience before but remember a good pastor doesn't drive church members like a dictator. A good pastor leads by example and teaches the word of God and leaves what you choose to do in your personal life between you and God. That's why its important to read the bible so you know whether someone is full of it or not. As for your cowboy, he was in the right. Not every man who calls himself a man of God is an actual man of God or even a good one. There will be plenty of people that get to heaven and will not be told " Well done thou good and faithful servant" and even more that Mathew 7:22-23 will apply to.

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    Obviously you have some issue with God and church so I'll pray for you.


    Again thanks to all that contributed positively to this thread.

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    Two things.

    #1 Ignore ixtow...it's the wise thing to do.

    #2 Open carry on property that you do not live on/work at is unlawful. Unless you are engaged in activities listed in 790.25(3).

    So to answer your question: "So if the Pastor and deacons approved it would it be legal for members to open carry on the property?"
    No.
    No one can give you 'permission' to violate the law.

    And even trying to stretch it into being "employed" there you likely would run afoul of chapter 493 Florida Statutes.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrich86 View Post
    Obviously you have some issue with God and church so I'll pray for you.
    It was an example, not necessarrily an accusation. I like God just fine, it's the false churches and the people who make Him look bad that I don't much care for... Especially those who don't step up when they should.

    It's a sad predicament. The masses make excuses and mock any who step up as "that guy." No wonder the country is in the condition it's in.

    You reap what you sow.

    Best to ignore that which irritates your conscience... The Hangman's greatest ally is he who allows it...

    @notalawyer; Keep making your excuses. Perhaps that will be a fitting inheritance for your grandchildren... I ask not your counsel nor your arms; as if you'd put either to use anyway...

    3rd post, which was mine, already answered his question. It's not legal to OC on any property but your own. No one can give permission even on their own private property. I offered that it might possibly be challeneged under 1st Amendment grounds, and this was seconded by someone of serious import. Becasue it's true. But, to gain standing for such, one would have to be arrested for it. If you're not willing, then accept your chains. I'd do it, but I don't go to church, so, not really a thing I'm in a position to do. I table the notion that if it's important, the inquiring party might step up. It's not important to him, so The State usurps without a fight.

    Ignoring it won't fix it. Ignoring the messenger and/or handing him off to the Hangman only brings the noose one step closer to YOU. Like tripping the fat guy when you're running from zombies... Hero! Way to hang together...

    I'm a lot less interested in the conditon and fate of my own soul, than doing good for others while I'm still here. Being careful, of course, not to bother casting too many pearls before swine. Maybe that'll count for something. Maybe it won't. I don't feel it's appropriate to nit-pick the details of an entrance fee, becasue I believe God is not a petty dumbass. I skip over those parts because it's selfish to obsess over one's own fate. I'm shunned because I seek out those places where hope has been abandoned, and bring some in. I'm shunned because I lay bare the truth of excuse makers. When good men do nothing, they cease to be good men.
    Last edited by ixtow; 08-29-2014 at 12:26 AM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Regular Member 2OLD2W8's Avatar
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    Rich7553 or notalawyer,
    Will the recent change highlighted at the bottom of this post have any unintended effects on the "open carry legalese" in 790.25(3)??


    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Nope. There isn't any provision in statute for a property owner to give permission for you to violate the law. You may legally open carry only under the exceptions in 790.25(3).

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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Two things.

    #1 Ignore ixtow...it's the wise thing to do.

    #2 Open carry on property that you do not live on/work at is unlawful. Unless you are engaged in activities listed in 790.25(3).

    So to answer your question: "So if the Pastor and deacons approved it would it be legal for members to open carry on the property?"
    No.
    No one can give you 'permission' to violate the law.

    And even trying to stretch it into being "employed" there you likely would run afoul of chapter 493 Florida Statutes.

    The State of Florida has some New Jury Instructions - Chapter 10 Weapons Offenses

    Two new instructions in Chapter 10 Weapons Offenses 10.20 & 10.21 adopted this year.
    http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/d..._corrected.pdf

    http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/j...uctions.shtml#


    10.21 IMPROPER EXHIBITION OF A [WEAPON] [FIREARM] [AT A SCHOOL-SPONSORED EVENT] [ON SCHOOL PROPERTY] [ON A SCHOOL BUS] [AT A SCHOOL BUS STOP] [WITHIN 1,000 FEET OF A SCHOOL]
    § 790.115(1), Fla. Stat.
    To prove the crime of Improper Exhibition of a [Weapon] [Firearm] [Sword] [Sword Cane] [Electric Weapon or Device] [Destructive Device] [at] [on] [within] [(insert prohibited place in Fla. Stat. 790.115(1))], the State must prove the following four elements beyond a reasonable doubt.
    1. (Defendant) had or carried a[n] [weapon] [firearm] [sword] [sword cane] [electric weapon or device] [destructive device].
    2. (Defendant) exhibited the [weapon] [firearm] [sword] [sword cane] [electric weapon or device] [destructive device] in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner.
    3. (Defendant) did so in the presence of one or more persons.
    4. At the time, (defendant) was [at a school-sponsored event] [on the grounds [or facilities] of a [school] [school bus]] [school bus stop]] [within 1,000 feet of the real property that compromises a [public or private elementary school] [middle school] [secondary school] during school hours [or during the time of a sanctioned school activity].
    Self-defense.
    If you find that the defendant exhibited the [weapon] [firearm] [sword] [sword cane] [electric weapon or device] [destructive device] in necessary self-defense, you must find the defendant not guilty. Read instructions 3.6(f) and/or 3.6(g) as applicable.
    Definitions. Give as applicable.
    § 790.001(13) and § 790.115(1), Fla. Stats.
    “Weapon” means any dirk, knife, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, razor blade, box cutter, common pocketknife, box cutter, or a deadly weapon, except a plastic knife or blunt-bladed table knife.
    R.R. v. State, 826 So. 2d 465 (Fla. 5th DCA 2002); Cook v. Crosby, 914 So. 2d 490 (Fla. 1st DCA 2005).
    A “deadly weapon” is any instrument which will likely cause death or great bodily harm when used in the ordinary and usual manner contemplated by its design and construction. An object can be a deadly weapon if its sole modern use is to cause great bodily harm. An object not designed for use as a weapon may nonetheless be a deadly weapon if its use, intended use, or threatened use by the defendant was in a manner likely to inflict death or great bodily harm.

    § 790.001(6), Fla. Stat.
    “Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; any machine gun. [The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.] The definition of “antique firearm is in Fla. Stat. § 790.001(1).


    § 790.001(14), Fla. Stat.
    “Electric weapon or device” means any device which, through the application or use of electrical current, is designed, redesigned, used, or intended to be used for offensive or defensive purposes, the destruction of life, or the infliction of injury.

    See § 790.001(4), Fla. Stat. for the definition of “destructive device.”
    Lesser Included Offenses
    IMPROPER EXHIBITION OF A [WEAPON] [FIREARM] AT SCHOOL – 790.115(1)
    CATEGORY ONE CATEGORY TWO FLA. STAT. INS. NO.
    Improper Exhibition of a Weapon or Firearm (except if the weapon is a closed common pocketknife) 790.10 10.5
    Attempt 777.04(1) 5.1
    Assault 784.011 8.1

    Comments
    The statute has an exception if the exhibition of the weapon or firearm was authorized and in support of school-sanctioned activities. See § 790.115(1), Fla. Stat.
    This crime does not apply if the exhibition of the weapon or firearm was on private real property, within 1,000 feet of a school, by the owner of the property or by a person who had been authorized, licensed, or invited by the owner to be on the property. See § 790.115(1), Fla. Stat.
    This crime does not apply if the defendant was a law enforcement officer as defined in
    § 943.10(1), (2), (3), (4), (6), (7), (8), (9), or (14), Fla. Stat. See § 790.115(3), Fla. Stat.
    This instruction was adopted in 2014.


    This crime does not apply if the exhibition of the weapon or firearm was on private real property, within 1,000 feet of a school, by the owner of the property or by a person who had been authorized, licensed, or invited by the owner to be on the property. See § 790.115(1), Fla. Stat.
    Last edited by 2OLD2W8; 12-03-2014 at 12:31 PM.
    “We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand

    "free people ought...to be armed." In so doing we grasp the larger lesson that the ability to defend ourselves is part and parcel to our freedom. George Washington , January 7, 1790

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2OLD2W8 View Post
    Rich7553 or notalawyer,
    Will the recent change highlighted at the bottom of this post have any unintended effects on the "open carry legalese" in 790.25(3)??
    This crime does not apply if the exhibition of the weapon or firearm was on private real property, within 1,000 feet of a school, by the owner of the property or by a person who had been authorized, licensed, or invited by the owner to be on the property. See § 790.115(1), Fla. Stat.
    {SNIP}
    Short answer: No.

    Long answer:
    First, we need to understand that Open Carry is distinguishable from exhibition. Also there is a difference between exhibition and Improper (unlawful) Exhibition. You can legally show you firearm to a friend (exhibit), but if you whip it out in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, then there's going to be a problem. But you still can't open carry it unless you are participating in one of the activities listed in 790.25(3).

    In regard to the 'invited' note. If you're not invited, licensed, or authorized, then, by definition, you are trespassing - doing it with a firearm is felony trespass. So the State could likely hit you up on both charges, and maybe the misdemeanor Open Carry statute if the circumstances show that you were also 'open carrying' it in addition to exhibiting it.

    Even if Open Carry becomes lawful (via a simple repeal of 790.053, it will still be unlawful to possess a firearm of the property of a school: 790.115(2):
    A person shall not possess any firearm, electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon as defined in s. 790.001(13), including a razor blade or box cutter, except as authorized in support of school-sanctioned activities, at a school-sponsored event or on the property of any school, school bus, or school bus stop; however, a person may carry a firearm:
    [#3 is the one about keeping it securely encased in your car.]
    Last edited by notalawyer; 12-03-2014 at 09:28 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member 2OLD2W8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notalawyer View Post
    Short answer: No.

    Long answer:
    First, we need to understand that Open Carry is distinguishable from exhibition. Also there is a difference between exhibition and Improper (unlawful) Exhibition. You can legally show you firearm to a friend (exhibit), but if you whip it out in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, then there's going to be a problem. But you still can't open carry it unless you are participating in one of the activities listed in 790.25(3).

    In regard to the 'invited' note. If you're not invited, licensed, or authorized, then, by definition, you are trespassing - doing it with a firearm is felony trespass. So the State could likely hit you up on both charges, and maybe the misdemeanor Open Carry statute if the circumstances show that you were also 'open carrying' it in addition to exhibiting it.

    Even if Open Carry becomes lawful (via a simple repeal of 790.053, it will still be unlawful to possess a firearm of the property of a school: 790.115(2):
    First, we need to understand that Open Carry is distinguishable from exhibition.
    Is there a definitive published difference, from the state's perspective of course?
    “We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand

    "free people ought...to be armed." In so doing we grasp the larger lesson that the ability to defend ourselves is part and parcel to our freedom. George Washington , January 7, 1790

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2OLD2W8 View Post
    Is there a definitive published difference, from the state's perspective of course?
    I don't think there is one from an appellate level or above.
    So like many of our crappy firearms laws, it becomes subjective based on the facts of each case, or the hurt feelings of some soccer mom, or the political shenanigans of LEO or the SA.

    Used in this context, I think 'exhibit' means to show publicly, especially for purposes of demonstration.

    Open carry is generally not that.

    I like to think of 'carry' = 'bear', which is distinct from 'exhibit'. This is even supported by 790.10's use of "having or carrying". So you can carry and not exhibit, or exhibit but not be carrying.

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