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Thread: The 10 most practically significant restrictions on availability of guns for self-def

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    The 10 most practically significant restrictions on availability of guns for self-def

    The 10 most practically significant — yet potentially legally vulnerable — restrictions on availability of guns for self-defenseBy Eugene Volokh August 27

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...-self-defense/

    1. Restrictions on gun carrying in public places
    2. Restrictions on handgun ownership by 18-to-20-year-olds
    3. Restrictions on handgun carrying by 18-to-20-year-olds in many states
    4. The federal restriction on gun possession by legal nonresident aliens
    5. Restrictions on handgun carrying or (in a few states) possession by legal aliens, resident or otherwise
    6. Restrictions on gun possession in people’s apartments within some government-owned housing
    7. Restrictions on gun possession by felons whose convictions are minor enough, or long enough ago, but which are in jurisdictions where restoration of civil rights is hard or impossible
    8. Restrictions on gun possession by those with old records of mental illness
    9. License fees for gun possession or handgun possession in those jurisdictions that impose hefty fees
    10. Similar license fees for concealed carry licenses, again as to those people for whom those fees are big money.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 08-28-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I take serious issue with items 4 and 5 on your list, Nightmare, for one simple reason: What happens if/when the estimated 11.7 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. are granted amnesty? Amnesty won't grant them citizenship, but it will change their status to that of legal aliens.

    Countless indications reveal they're far more likely to commit a wide variety of crimes than the general populace of the U.S. Are you suggesting we remove a powerful tool used by the justice system to keep violent non-citizen criminals off the streets? The very fact they're here illegally already attests to their criminal status.

    I agree with your argument that the remainder of the restrictions should vanish.
    Last edited by since9; 09-01-2014 at 04:32 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Countless indications reveal they're far more likely to commit a wide variety of crimes than the general populace of the U.S. Are you suggesting we remove a powerful tool used by the justice system to keep violent non-citizen criminals off the streets? The very fact they're here illegally already attests to their criminal status.
    Countless indications reveal that you've been suckered by one of the many self-fulfilling prophecies of (nationalist) statism.

    It's Eugene Volokh's list, anyway. I often don't care for the guy, but your criticism are way off the mark.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Countless indications reveal that you've been suckered by one of the many self-fulfilling prophecies of (nationalist) statism.
    Merely stating so doesn't make it so, so -- until you specify how or why, supplying a few of those "countless indications" for reference, I'm going call B.S. on your comment.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Countless indications reveal they're far more likely to commit a wide variety of crimes than the general populace of the U.S. Are you suggesting we remove a powerful tool used by the justice system to keep violent non-citizen criminals off the streets? The very fact they're here illegally already attests to their criminal status.
    Merely stating so doesn't make it so, so -- until you specify how or why, supplying a few of those "countless indications" for reference, I'm going call B.S. on your comment.

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    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I take serious issue with items 4 and 5 on your list, Nightmare, for one simple reason: What happens if/when the estimated 11.7 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. are granted amnesty? Amnesty won't grant them citizenship, but it will change their status to that of legal aliens.

    Countless indications reveal they're far more likely to commit a wide variety of crimes than the general populace of the U.S. Are you suggesting we remove a powerful tool used by the justice system to keep violent non-citizen criminals off the streets? The very fact they're here illegally already attests to their criminal status.

    I agree with your argument that the remainder of the restrictions should vanish.
    Do you believe that a right to keep and bear arms exists? IMO Your sentiments are very plainly supportive of an iteration of prior restraint which is the primary basis of most gun control and is anti liberty. We shouldn't make exceptions to our principles just because we face a challenge along with their application.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The constitution say, in part, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, ..." It does not, obviously, state "citizen(s)."

    Some citizens should not be afforded the opportunity to exercise their 2A guaranteed right, if the prevention of a future crime is a priority for some.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The constitution say, in part, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, ..." It does not, obviously, state "citizen(s)."

    Some citizens should not be afforded the opportunity to exercise their 2A guaranteed right, if the prevention of a future crime is a priority for some.
    So I guess the 2a applies to Chinese in China?

    Why do I doubt the authors intended "people" as all encompassing for every country.

    I may be wrong but pretty sure at the time of the writing African Americans were NOT considers "people". So does that mean that 2a does not apply to them now?

    Let's play the interpretation game....

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    Last edited by Primus; 09-02-2014 at 08:52 AM.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right from the right to life enjoyed by all people and inspiring the Second Amendment. COTUS and the BoR was written to fetter the US FedGov. That we have unbound our tyrant is immaterial to natural law.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So I guess the 2a applies to Chinese in China?

    Why do I doubt the authors intended "people" as all encompassing for every country.

    I may be wrong but pretty sure at the time of the writing African Americans were NOT considers "people". So does that mean that 2a does not apply to them now?

    Let's play the interpretation game....

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I dismiss you ignorance, you reside in the cradle of liberty, yet hold liberty in so little regard.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    A tooth in the indentures to the toothless tyrant.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right from the right to life enjoyed by all people and inspiring the Second Amendment. COTUS and the BoR was written to fetter the US FedGov. That we have unbound our tyrant is immaterial to natural law.
    I agree with this. +1

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I dismiss you ignorance, you reside in the cradle of liberty, yet hold liberty in so little regard.
    Well that was a good deflection and a slight towards myself without even addressing either point.

    You actually made the case for "living document" vs. "Strict interpretation" whether you meant to or not.

    Hence me saying let's play the interpretation game....

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    No, I believe that he's saying that you're ignorant in that you're comparing different things:

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So I guess the 2a applies to Chinese in China? No. They don't have a Constitution therefore it's THEIR issue.

    Why do I doubt the authors intended "people" as all encompassing for every country. Because they DIDN'T. It was for the fledgling United States not the world.

    I may be wrong but pretty sure at the time of the writing African Americans were NOT considers "people". So does that mean that 2a does not apply to them now? Now you're just being silly.

    Let's play the interpretation game.... Interpretation is one thing, you're just leaping about and not really making a point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbod'1 View Post
    No. They don't have a Constitution therefore it's THEIR issue.
    CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA (Adopted on December 4, 1982)


    PREAMBLE

    China is one of the countries with the longest histories in the world.

    CHAPTER I. GENERAL PRINCIPLES
    Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants.
    Article 2. All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people.
    Article 3. The state organs of the People's Republic of China apply the principle of democratic centralism.
    Article 4. All nationalities in the People's Republic of China are equal.
    Article 5. The state upholds the uniformity and dignity of the socialist legal system.
    Article 6. The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.
    Article 7. The state economy is the sector of socialist economy under ownership by the whole people; it is the leading force in the national economy.
    [ ... ]

    http://english.people.com.cn/constit...stitution.html
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    Regular Member Turbod'1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    CONSTITUTION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA (Adopted on December 4, 1982)


    PREAMBLE

    China is one of the countries with the longest histories in the world.

    CHAPTER I. GENERAL PRINCIPLES
    Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants.
    Article 2. All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people.
    Article 3. The state organs of the People's Republic of China apply the principle of democratic centralism.
    Article 4. All nationalities in the People's Republic of China are equal.
    Article 5. The state upholds the uniformity and dignity of the socialist legal system.
    Article 6. The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people.
    Article 7. The state economy is the sector of socialist economy under ownership by the whole people; it is the leading force in the national economy.
    [ ... ]

    http://english.people.com.cn/constit...stitution.html
    Are you being serious?

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    Read The Open Society and Its Enemies to learn that most nation-states have constitutions that are the tyrant's edicts recorded for the people's enlightenment. ONLY COTUS, uniquely bound the tyrant to powers granted by the governed. Unfortunately we, US, have unbound the tyrant and opened Pandora's Box to horrors unimagined. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Well that was a good deflection and a slight towards myself without even addressing either point.

    You actually made the case for "living document" vs. "Strict interpretation" whether you meant to or not.

    Hence me saying let's play the interpretation game....

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    Because your point(s) are not relevant to the post you initially addressed. The 2A does not apply to anyone. Our right to keep and bear arms applies to everyone, everywhere. The 2A is supposed to prevent you, a cop, from infringing upon my right, or a Chinese citizen's right, to keep and bear arms. The 14A fixed the lame argument regarding slaves and slavery in the eyes of the government.

    Essentially:
    Moreover, even if there were precedent for the proposition that illegal aliens generally are covered by the Fourth Amendment, we do not find that the use of “the people” in both the Second and the Fourth Amendment mandates a holding that the two amendments cover exactly the same groups of people. The purposes of the Second and the Fourth Amendment are different. The Second Amendment grants an affirmative right to keep and bear arms, while the Fourth Amendment is at its core a protective right against abuses by the government. Attempts to precisely analogize the scope of these two amendments is misguided, and we find it reasonable that an affirmative right would be extended to fewer groups than would a protective right.

    http://www.volokh.com/2011/06/13/the...th-amendments/
    You have, apparently, taken to the notion that "the people" and "citizen" are interchangeable in all situations. They are not in my view and I believe The Founders held this view too. Back then there existed the notion, heaven forbid, held by "the people" that "If I don't like my government I'll go find one I like, start my own, or do without one." We did fight a war over this idea.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Contrarian's Avatar
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    Post We the People

    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So I guess the 2a applies to Chinese in China?

    Why do I doubt the authors intended "people" as all encompassing for every country.

    I may be wrong but pretty sure at the time of the writing African Americans were NOT considers "people". So does that mean that 2a does not apply to them now?

    Let's play the interpretation game....

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to........."

    So - Chinese? Not so much.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Because your point(s) are not relevant to the post you initially addressed. The 2A does not apply to anyone. Our right to keep and bear arms applies to everyone, everywhere. The 2A is supposed to prevent you, a cop, from infringing upon my right, or a Chinese citizen's right, to keep and bear arms. The 14A fixed the lame argument regarding slaves and slavery in the eyes of the government.

    Essentially:You have, apparently, taken to the notion that "the people" and "citizen" are interchangeable in all situations. They are not in my view and I believe The Founders held this view too. Back then there existed the notion, heaven forbid, held by "the people" that "If I don't like my government I'll go find one I like, start my own, or do without one." We did fight a war over this idea.
    Your conflating 2A with a natural right.

    Yes everyone has the natural right to self defense.

    No not everyone has the protection of the second amendment.

    So in China... Sure natural right of self defense. But zero protection from the second amendment which only applies to a citizens and legal aliens.

    My point is a very specific group is protected by the 2a. It has actually gotten broader as the years have gone one. Go figure.

    So again... Dont conflate the two. They are not the same.

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrarian View Post
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to........."

    So - Chinese? Not so much.
    Sarcasm my friend...

    He stated that "People" had a broad meaning. I was showing exactly what you have stated that "People" in the context of that document was very narrow.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Your conflating 2A with a natural right.

    Yes everyone has the natural right to self defense.

    No not everyone has the protection of the second amendment.

    So in China... Sure natural right of self defense. But zero protection from the second amendment which only applies to a citizens and legal aliens.

    My point is a very specific group is protected by the 2a. It has actually gotten broader as the years have gone one. Go figure.

    So again... Dont conflate the two. They are not the same.

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    The 2A prevents the government from infringing upon our right to keep and bear arms.
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
    Self defense is not in the text of the 2A. I'm sure there are some cops who would very much desire the 2A to state self defense vs. keep and bear arms.

    http://www.hillsdale.edu/outreach/fr...rican-founding
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    So I guess the 2a applies to Chinese in China?

    Why do I doubt the authors intended "people" as all encompassing for every country.

    Snipped

    Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
    I snipped it because the rest of your post merely showed your TROLLHOOD, as was not even worthy of response!

    Now, on to my reply. To your post as quoted above

    Nope, That isn't the way it is!

    The UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION (including all amendments) apply to ANY PERSON present in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The Constitution does not say that to be blessed by they Constitution that one must be a US Citizen. As to the LEGAL Resident Aliens---- LET ME SEE IF THIS IS CLEAR ENOUGH------ The Constitution PROTECTS the right of the "people to keep and bear arms----Going so far as to state this RIGHT "shall not be infringed"! If a Legal Resident Alien wants to (or even if they don't want to) they have the US Constitutionally Protected right to do so. IMO, any state or federal law that infringes this IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 09-02-2014 at 03:03 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    I snipped it because the rest of your post merely showed your TROLLHOOD, as was not even worthy of response!

    Now, on to my reply. To your post as quoted above

    Nope, That isn't the way it is!

    The UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION (including all amendments) apply to ANY PERSON present in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The Constitution does not say that to be blessed by they Constitution that one must be a US Citizen. As to the LEGAL Resident Aliens---- LET ME SEE IF THIS IS CLEAR ENOUGH------ The Constitution PROTECTS the right of the "people to keep and bear arms----Going so far as to state this RIGHT "shall not be infringed"! If a Legal Resident Alien wants to (or even if they don't want to) they have the US Constitutionally Protected right to do so. IMO, any state or federal law that infringes this IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL!
    No its not clear.. Can you use more caps and exclamation points?



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    Quote Originally Posted by primus View Post
    no its not clear.. Can you use more caps and exclamation points?

    :d

    sent from my xt907 using tapatalk
    troll!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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