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Thread: Open carry "dress code"

  1. #1
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Open carry "dress code"

    The Second Amendment is for everyone yet I always see the same comments coming from many here that we are required to dress a certain way when OCing. What way? Nobody can agree on it.

    One member says his cowboy boots and chaps are preferred. He declares anyone who wears anything he associates with hip hop to be a "lout."

    Another member says we need to wear tucked in dress shirts and slacks with an expensive leather holster.

    Another says corporate casual is the norm.

    If the Second Amendment is for everyone, why the prejudices as to what someone wears? If someone wants to go outside in a bathrobe, hard hat and moon boots and OC a LCP on an $12 Austrian surplus pistol belt, who cares? A right is a right and is not subjective to the opinions and butthurt feelings of others.

    All men (and women) are created equal. The Bill of Rights codifies pre existing rights. I don't see anywhere that says you must wear assless chaps to refuse lodging to soldiers and I don't see where it says I can't wear my Boss jeans, Dallas Cowboys hat and a hoodie if I want to exercise my RTKBA.

    Apparently carrying in what one can afford makes them unqualified as well, regardless of how well a holster works.

    The prejudice is overwhelming on so many different levels from those who, as purported open carriers, should recognize from their own dealings with other gun owners, that any way you exercise a right is perfectly fine.

  2. #2
    Regular Member stealthyeliminator's Avatar
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    Agreed. I recall the 'he looks like a homeless person' criticisms. What if he was? Does a homeless man not have the same rights as I? I understand the idea behind dressing a certain way, the goal and all, but only your personal pursuit is justified by that, not the criticism of those that don't pursue with you.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    "Dress codes" are for folks that are uncomfortable with confrontation - be it about their style of dress or what sort/color of holster they use, or whether to carry a black plastic or black metal pistol as opposed to anything two-tone or shiney or heaven forbid a revolver.*

    I don't want to look like a plainclothes cop. I don't want to look like a personal protection agent. I don't want to look like some tacticool rent-a-gun just back from/going to the litterbox. I just want that handgun to be a part of my daily wear, just like the hankie in my back pocket or the watch on my wrist.

    If somebody does not like my sense of fashion, I hope they have the sense and courtesy to discuss it with me in private, but I am not above telling them in public to mind their own business.

    stay safe.

    * All of that is what a well-known blogger (before she took her site dark recently) called "open carrying at people".
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    I think that the tension here is between the First Amendment right of association and its implict right of discrimination. If I don't like one's icky appearance then I won't associate with birds of that feather. If I don't like one's taste in music then I will not associate. Gun carry is one only aspect of appearance.

    But I sure as heck am not going to engage the icky on their tastelessness.

    LOL I see you looking.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-07-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator View Post
    Agreed. I recall the 'he looks like a homeless person' criticisms. What if he was? Does a homeless man not have the same rights as I? I understand the idea behind dressing a certain way, the goal and all, but only your personal pursuit is justified by that, not the criticism of those that don't pursue with you.

    Exactly! Case in point...Sometimes, you couldn't tell me apart from a Wall Street broker. Some days, my beard is shaggy, my clothes are dirty and I'm a sweaty smelly mess. Whether or not I'm going to a wedding, helping a friend clean up the mess from his backed up sewer, coming back from the dojo, going grocery shopping or learning to replace an alternator... I have the right to defend myself while exercising my first amendment right to speak out against the actions of our "elected" representatives.

    One's income, living situation or appearance is not an indicator of his eligibility to exercise one's rights.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    The Second Amendment is for everyone yet I always see the same comments coming from many here that we are required to dress a certain way when OCing. What way? Nobody can agree on it.
    I certainly don't think that, even though I'm fairly certain this thread is a response to our recent disagreement over what most women I know would probably call "fashion sense". If not, then excuse my arrogance.

    I do think it behooves the OCer to present himself well to the public. Furthermore, I agree with Skidmark that probably the worst choice is the "plainclothes cop" look. (This is a reason I almost never dress conservatively.)

    Also, I too want the handgun to appear as a part of normal attire. This is why I routinely make fun of tacticool rigs. I personally think leather holsters are a great way to instantly avoid "tacticoolness", but there are unimaginable other ways to achieve the same result. (Incidentally, "hip-hop apparel" also does a pretty good job of negating tacticoolness, which puts it miles above the mall ninja or plainclothes cop looks.)

    Also, I really have no problem with folks that don't give a damn and choose to present themselves in ways that many folks might react negatively to, even if those folks carry. That's their right, so long as they aren't aggressive. (Although I admit I find myself annoyed by those who still think it's a good idea to OC long guns into Starbucks, Kroger, etc.)

    I do have my opinions about what sorts of dress and appearance are more or less likely to generate positive reactions from others, but like any opinions their worth is only that which you assign to them.

  7. #7
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    "Dress codes" are for folks that are uncomfortable with confrontation - be it about their style of dress or what sort/color of holster they use, or whether to carry a black plastic or black metal pistol as opposed to anything two-tone or shiney or heaven forbid a revolver.*



    I don't want to look like a plainclothes cop. I don't want to look like a personal protection agent. I don't want to look like some tacticool rent-a-gun just back from/going to the litterbox. I just want that handgun to be a part of my daily wear, just like the hankie in my back pocket or the watch on my wrist.



    If somebody does not like my sense of fashion, I hope they have the sense and courtesy to discuss it with me in private, but I am not above telling them in public to mind their own business.



    stay safe.



    * All of that is what a well-known blogger (before she took her site dark recently) called "open carrying at people".

    *What I am attempting to highlight by quoting him is his intentionally staging his words to appear as an implied threat. I know what he meant, I agree with what he says; I do not agree with his motives, which is intimidation.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I certainly don't think that, even though I'm fairly certain this thread is a response to our recent disagreement over what most women I know would probably call "fashion sense". If not, then excuse my arrogance.



    I do think it behooves the OCer to present himself well to the public. Furthermore, I agree with Skidmark that probably the worst choice is the "plainclothes cop" look. (This is a reason I almost never dress conservatively.)



    Also, I too want the handgun to appear as a part of normal attire. This is why I routinely make fun of tacticool rigs. I personally think leather holsters are a great way to instantly avoid "tacticoolness", but there are unimaginable other ways to achieve the same result. (Incidentally, "hip-hop apparel" also does a pretty good job of negating tacticoolness, which puts it miles above the mall ninja or plainclothes cop looks.)



    Also, I really have no problem with folks that don't give a damn and choose to present themselves in ways that many folks might react negatively to, even if those folks carry. That's their right, so long as they aren't aggressive. (Although I admit I find myself annoyed by those who still think it's a good idea to OC long guns into Starbucks, Kroger, etc.)



    I do have my opinions about what sorts of dress and appearance are more or less likely to generate positive reactions from others, but like any opinions their worth is only that which you assign to them.

    "fashion sense" is no more than a tool used to discriminate against those who cannot afford or do not like to dress the same as a certain clique. It's a juvenile attempt to belittle and emotionally scar other females whom one female is jealous of. When one female goes after another female's "fashion sense" it is usually because she feels threatened and is afraid the spotlight might be shifting. So in other words, jealous chick is saying " she looks better than me today."

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    Good "Fashion sense" was exercised when I (GS-12) put on a fresh (double knit golf) shirt and a jacket when I had to go to my (GM-15) boss' office.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Good "Fashion sense" was exercised when I (GS-12) put on a fresh (double knit golf) shirt and a jacket when I had to go to my (GM-15) boss' office.

    Rare occasion I click the spoiler button.

    That's not fashion sense. That's a dress code as dictated by your employer.

    Also, fashion sense in the term marshaul used it is not the same as the way you used it. The meaning and interpretation of a phrase is subjective.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    "fashion sense" is no more than a tool used to discriminate against those who cannot afford or do not like to dress the same as a certain clique. It's a juvenile attempt to belittle and emotionally scar other females whom one female is jealous of. When one female goes after another female's "fashion sense" it is usually because she feels threatened and is afraid the spotlight might be shifting. So in other words, jealous chick is saying " she looks better than me today."
    I agree with that, although it seems impossible for humans to avoid some form of discrimination. It seems, to me, better that they discriminate over things which convey culture (this includes dress) than, say, race. I base this on the fact that the holding of cultural values is universal, whereas (e.g.) racial preference is decidedly not a universal human attribute.

    I agree vociferously that clique-ish-ness is (as are all manifestations of tribalism) a dangerous human instinct which ought to be recognized and kept in check. I remind myself of this frequently.

    Also, funnily enough, when I think of "hip-hop attire" poverty is not what comes to my mind, as I tend to think of the overpriced designer-brand stuff that "hip-hoppers" tend to hawk. I don't tend to judge people for "looking poor" (whatever that is). I certainly can't imagine thinking anything of an OCer who had (for example) clothes like mine, except that they were ratty and full of holes.

    I agree it's unreasonable to judge over poverty, which may be a circumstance totally out of one's control. That said, if an OCer finds himself with disposable income, it surely behooves him to replace any worn-out clothes. Surely he is more likely to receive positive first reactions if he presents himself as a successful, productive member of society. Whether an OCer with disposable income chooses to avail himself of (what I see as being) this particular benefit, is totally up to his discretion as a free individual.

    I do think that what I think of as "hip-hop" attire is a fairly childish way to dress, but you're free to hold a different opinion. The real point (apropos the other thread) was that I suspect the majority of other folks will react the same way as me, but you're free to have different experience or simply not care. As to whether that means all your "jealous chick" insinuations apply to me, I suppose I can only take comfort in your equal guilt, demonstrated by your "Cletus" remarks in the other thread, which were frankly less good-natured than my own.
    Last edited by marshaul; 09-07-2014 at 06:42 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I agree with that, although it seems impossible for humans to avoid some form of discrimination. It seems, to me, better that they discriminate over things which convey culture (this includes dress) than, say, race. I base this on the fact that the holding of cultural values is universal, whereas (e.g.) racial preference is decidedly not a universal human attribute.

    I agree vociferously that clique-ish-ness is (as are all manifestations of tribalism) a dangerous human instinct which ought to be recognized and kept in check. I remind myself of this frequently.

    Also, funnily enough, when I think of "hip-hop attire" poverty is not what comes to my mind, as I tend to think of the overpriced designer-brand stuff that "hip-hoppers" tend to hawk. I don't tend to judge people for "looking poor" (whatever that is). I certainly can't imagine thinking anything of an OCer who had (for example) clothes like mine, except that they were ratty and full of holes.

    I agree it's unreasonable to judge over poverty, which may be a circumstance totally out of one's control. That said, if an OCer finds himself with disposable income, it surely behooves him to replace any worn-out clothes. Surely he is more likely to receive positive first reactions if he presents himself as a successful, productive member of society. Whether an OCer with disposable income chooses to avail himself of (what I see as being) this particular benefit, is totally up to his discretion as a free individual.

    I do think that what I think of as "hip-hop" attire is a fairly childish way to dress, but you're free to hold a different opinion. The real point (apropos the other thread) was that I suspect the majority of other folks will react the same way as me, but you're free to have different experience or simply not care. As to whether that means all your "jealous chick" insinuations apply to me, I suppose I can only take comfort in your equal guilt, demonstrated by your "Cletus" remarks in the other thread, which were frankly less good-natured than my own.

    Your remarks were neither better natured or more justified than mine. I was helping you put the shoe on the other foot and apparently it didn't fit. My town is full of those who dress as you do and I have never called them Cletus though we do have a Jethro.

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    I leave matters of style, cut, color, and size the the wearer of the clothing, generally.

    I do much prefer that they do wear clothing while OC'ing and especially when concealing! And to those wearing the supersized (for them) jeans down low about their knees---- Dude, Your DIAPER is full!
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Your remarks were neither better natured or more justified than mine. I was helping you put the shoe on the other foot and apparently it didn't fit. My town is full of those who dress as you do and I have never called them Cletus though we do have a Jethro.
    Yeah, but I don't care if you don't like how I look. And I'm pretty sure I'm correct in believing that, statistically, "hip-hop apparel" is unlikely to generate good first impressions (whether, but perhaps especially when, coupled with OC), and I'm pretty sure that most people over about age 25 would agree that "hip-hop apparel" makes the wearer come across as decidedly... unserious. I suspect that demonstrating a certain degree of "seriousness" (for lack of a better word) makes folks assume competency on your part, which makes them far less likely to react negatively to OC. Feel free to disagree with my assessment.

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    Regular Member wimwag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Yeah, but I don't care if you don't like how I look. And I'm pretty sure I'm correct in believing that, statistically, "hip-hop apparel" is unlikely to generate good first impressions (whether, but perhaps especially when, coupled with OC), and I'm pretty sure that most people over about age 25 would agree that "hip-hop apparel" makes the wearer come across as decidedly... unserious. I suspect that demonstrating a certain degree of "seriousness" (for lack of a better word) makes folks assume competency on your part, which makes them far less likely to react negatively to OC. Feel free to disagree with my assessment.

    That's all opinion. Good luck with that deluded train of thought.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    That's all opinion. Good luck with that deluded train of thought.
    I'm sorry, I can't help envisioning J-Roc from Trailer Park Boys OCing, and how impossible it would for anybody to take him seriously.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    *What I am attempting to highlight by quoting him is his intentionally staging his words to appear as an implied threat. I know what he meant, I agree with what he says; I do not agree with his motives, which is intimidation.
    Which "he"?

    If the "he" was me, without getting into the content and context I do proudly and loudly declare that I intentionally "stage" my words. Amazingly, it is how ideas are transmitted.

    But without cross-examination to establish intent the best anyone could do is declare their inference.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wimwag View Post
    Exactly! Case in point...Sometimes, you couldn't tell me apart from a Wall Street broker. Some days, my beard is shaggy, my clothes are dirty and I'm a sweaty smelly mess. Whether or not I'm going to a wedding, helping a friend clean up the mess from his backed up sewer, coming back from the dojo, going grocery shopping or learning to replace an alternator... I have the right to defend myself while exercising my first amendment right to speak out against the actions of our "elected" representatives.

    One's income, living situation or appearance is not an indicator of his eligibility to exercise one's rights.
    Hmm...
    SECTION 210.210: PEACE DISTURBANCE

    A person commits the offense of peace disturbance if:

    1. He/she unreasonably and knowingly disturbs or alarms another person or persons by:

    e. Creating a noxious and offensive odor.
    Go out and about a "...sweaty smelly mess." I'd call a cop on ya.

    Anyway, folks who worry over what other folks think about their dress = worrying over what other people read.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    It is my personal opinion that human beings are snobs by nature. People seem to try to find things to use to elevate themselves by putting down others. You know...

    -He only has a Chevy but I have a Cadillac ...

    -He is living in a motel in BFE but I have a penthouse apartment in New York....

    -My wife is a hottie but his girl friend barks during a full moon....

    And....

    -He wears old dirty clothes but I wear new $1500 suits....

    Now a comment:

    If people would decide for themselves what to wear while OCing due to what ever purpose they have... such as intentionally wanting to present a positive appearance that caters to the sartorial snobbishness of the people in public, or for personal physical comfort, or just because those are the only clothes/type of clothes they have, or because they are dirty from working.... then they most certainly should wear whatever clothes they have/want to for whatever reasons they might have.

    But I try not to become one of the sartorial snobs myself when it comes to what others wear while OCing.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  20. #20
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    For good or bad people do form opinions based on how one looks.

    Some times they have merits other times they don't.

    If I am purposely open carrying to make a statement I dress on the better side.

    But man times when I just have to run to store while I have been busy doing a project in my work clothes.

    They can tend to be a bit dirty but most people get the drift when one is buying plumping supplies ect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    [ ... ] most people get the drift when one is buying plumping supplies ect.
    usually called groceries, "plumping supplies ect[sic erat scriptum].
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Judge a book by its cover. That's usually not a wise thing to do.

    I dress for the occasion. For my occasion, not your occasion. When I'm working on the car and I need a part from the auto store I don't change my close to go to the store, no matter how much the wife complains.

    Now, when it comes to an open carry walk, which I have participated in many times, dress does become part of the message.

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    LOL But your change your cover depending on the occasion and the desired impression?

    And I disagree that a book should not be judged by its cover. I've yet to read a book that I judge significant with a garish or trite cover - and I read voluminously. I'll be glad to link my Goodreads account under separate cover. Much of my reading at the moment comes from arXiv.org, not linked to Goodreads, and has only a title page - no cover to judge.
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    Many books require no thought from those who read them, and for a very simple reason; they made no such demand upon those who wrote them. - Charles Caleb Colton (1780 - 1832), Lacon, 1820
    It is not the cover, it is what's inside.

    Typically, books are waste of good timber...though, I grow timber...so, read a book.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    "Dress codes" are for folks that are uncomfortable with confrontation .
    Truth!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Yeah, but I don't care if you don't like how I look.
    If you have seen me in person, you already know that I have no "fashion sense" whatsoever. If I dress"up", I do that for my Sweet Baboo and no other. I am secure within myself and your opine of my dress is irrelevant to me. I dress for utilility, for my personnal needs. If I upset you, go take a lie down and get over it.


    Unwad your panties. People come in all sizes, shapes, colors and dress. All should add at least one firearm to their dress code.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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