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Thread: Carrying in bars/restaurants.

  1. #1
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    Carrying in bars/restaurants.

    Listed in the guide, the open/concealed carry WITH a CCW permit says:

    Bars\Restaurants(Class B-Consumption on premises) Yes
    - Affirmative Defense(“Display” Permit & ID)
    - No Consumption of alcohol
    What does the "Affirmative defense" bit actually mean?

    Also I was under the impression that you could not OC in a bar without the owners permission (even with a CCW permit).

    If I have a permit can I OC in a bar (and not drink obviously)?

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    Does not address mode of carry or means of being armed.

    941.237  Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out-of-state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/941/III/237
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-10-2014 at 01:44 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what guide you're referring to. The DOJ has a FAQ on their website. There's nothing related to "affirmative defense" in the FAQ. There is this regarding displaying a license:
    A licensee or out-of-state licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon must display the license and photo identification to a law enforcement officer upon the request of the law enforcement officer while the law enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and with lawful authority. Wis. Stat. § 175.60(2g)(c).
    Apparently it's a $25 fine if you don't display a license within 48 hours.

    To OC in a location with a class B liquor license one must have the permission of the owner, or manager. I don't think that having a CCL expressly allows one to open carry in a bar.

    Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the above. I am not a lawyer, and all that . . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    941.237  Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out-of-state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or manager of the premises who is issued the Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/941/III/237

    So you CAN carry openly providing you have CCW?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    So you CAN carry openly providing you have CCW?
    Seems plain to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Seems plain to me.
    I'll take that as a yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Running Wolf View Post
    I'm not sure what guide you're referring to. The DOJ has a FAQ on their website. There's nothing related to "affirmative defense" in the FAQ. There is this regarding displaying a license:
    Apparently it's a $25 fine if you don't display a license within 48 hours.

    To OC in a location with a class B liquor license one must have the permission of the owner, or manager. I don't think that having a CCL expressly allows one to open carry in a bar.

    Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the above. I am not a lawyer, and all that . . . .
    This sticky on Wisconsin. It has a little yes|no summary.

    Any comment on the other post (law). It would seem to suggest you can.

    Question is, has anyone done it?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell View Post
    This sticky on Wisconsin. It has a little yes|no summary.

    Any comment on the other post (law). It would seem to suggest you can.

    Question is, has anyone done it?
    I OC almost all the time (CC at Church). I have been to numerous businesses that serve alcohol while OCing. I am also a CCL license holder.
    Last edited by Plankton; 09-10-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Running Wolf's Avatar
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    I've also OC'd in WI at establishments with class B liquor licenses. On more than one occasion, and without issue.
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    Other than fast food places, pretty much everything in Northern Wisconsin has a Class B LL.

    I've OCed into all kinds of supper clubs with absolutely no issues. I don't drink, but do go to a bar occasionally with friends. I've heard the OC only in bars with the owner/manager permission a lot, but I can't find that anywhere in writing. I think it is like any over establishment, they can ask you to leave for whatever reason, it's their business.

    I've asked about OC at a couple of bars and have always been told no. I've never just walked into a bar OC to see what would happen, I expect you would get mixed results. If I know I will be waiting in the bar for a table in the supper club, I will wear a sport coat, or a light jacket while in the bar, then take it off for dinner if I get warm.

    Tomahawk Fall ride this weekend, I'd bet there are more than a few firearms in bars around here. I don't know about how many OC tho. I've also heard you can walk through the bar to get to the seating area if needed or to the bathroom, OC. But again, where is it in writing?

    I also CC in church as another poster mentioned. Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with OC , but I guess I respect that there might be some others that would. I have mixed feelings about it and have asked the Elders what the policy is on it. They asked me if I thought it might happen and I said yes. Meaning but not saying, me. Given today's crazy world and hostilities toward religious groups, I feel a church is probably one of the most needed places for some protection. Given the amount of untucked shirts, vests, and sport coats in the summer, I'd say I'm not the only one thinking that. Thank the Good Lord for air conditioning!

    Bottom line answer to your question best I can figure. Yes, you can open carry in a bar as long as you have a license that is recognized by Wisconsin, and you are not drinking. But, I would expect to be asked to leave or conceal. I suppose technically, you could refuse to conceal, but you would have to leave or be subject to trespassing charges. So, it might be a two step process? The only thing I know for sure is that it is all seems way too complicated and unclear.
    Last edited by Wstar425; 09-12-2014 at 05:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wstar425 View Post
    Other than fast food places, pretty much everything in Northern Wisconsin has a Class B LL.
    [ ... ] I've heard the OC only in bars with the owner/manager permission a lot, but I can't find that anywhere in writing. [ ... ] But again, where is it in writing? [ ... ]
    In general the law prohibits rather thant permits. The writing is at

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...es/941/III/237
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell
    Listed in the guide, the open/concealed carry WITH a CCW permit says:

    Bars\Restaurants(Class B-Consumption on premises) Yes
    - Affirmative Defense (“Display” Permit & ID)
    - No Consumption of alcohol

    What does the "Affirmative defense" bit actually mean?

    Also I was under the impression that you could not OC in a bar without the owners permission (even with a CCW permit).

    If I have a permit can I OC in a bar (and not drink obviously)?
    If you live in WI, you need to get a WI ccl (concealed carry license).
    If you're a nonresident, you can use any carry license or permit which is recognized by WI.

    Anywhere concealed carry is allowed, open carry is allowed, and vice versa.
    The only exception they try to enforce is at the statehouse. The statehouse police don't like OC and will try to tell you it's not allowed there, but there's no law against it.

    Here's 941.237, the WI statute about possession of a firearm at a tavern (class B establishment)
    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...es/941/III/237

    It is legal to possess a pistol in a tavern if:
    you are a licensee (OC or cc, no alcohol consumption on the premises) OR
    you have permission from the owner or manager (OC only, because you don't have a license; can consume alcohol but can't become impaired) OR
    you are an on-duty LEO, CO, or military member OR
    you are a private security person (see restrictions) OR
    you are a former LEO (no restriction on drinking on the premises)


    The affirmative defense phrase means that the law makes possession of a pistol at a tavern illegal,
    then gives exceptions to that rule.
    I've listed (most of) them above. Go read the statute.
    So police can demand you show your licenses if they see you armed in a tavern, because being armed in a tavern is illegal, and you have to prove that you meet one of the exceptions and are not committing a crime.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 09-13-2014 at 12:05 AM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLovell
    So you CAN carry openly providing you have CCW?
    Having a criminal record has nothing to do with whether or not you're allowed to OC in a tavern.

    And anywhere other than a tavern or a taxpayer-owned building or a school zone, you don't need a concealed carry license (ccl) to OC.

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