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Thread: OC Video: Have you guys seen this? OMG what a violation of this guy's rights!

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    OC Video: Have you guys seen this? OMG what a violation of this guy's rights!

    911 operator takes a MWAG call and assures the caller that it's perfectly legal to OC. LEO's are dispatched and man is held on the ground at gunpoint, disarmed, and ultimately released.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLmrTENZwDA

    Last edited by Ron_O; 09-14-2014 at 02:54 PM.

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    News coverage from 21 Dec 2013
    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...s_grand_r.html

    The complaint
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-zc...TWs/edit?pli=1

    Party Name Search Results - Deffert Johann Your search returned no cases.

    The complaining attorney has one case only open, COA 317502, PEOPLE OF MI V THOMAS CLINTON LEFREE
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-14-2014 at 04:06 PM.
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    I would give him more than 600,000 ....

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I don't even want to watch it. Reading the complaint transcript. Unbelievable. I hope he bankrupts the city over this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member rightwinglibertarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Officer William Moe drew his service pistol and aimed it at Deffert as he approached, the lawsuit said. Moe ordered Deffert to the ground, on his stomach, and handcuffed him behind his back. The officer then removed Deffert’s gun from the holster.
    Well thats making threats to kill followed by theft. I'd be asking the MI self defence statutes. That behavior is totally unacceptable and Deberry v US is clear. The officer had no business even stopping him on the sole account of him bearing arms. I'm hoping the officer in question was fired at the very least and hopefully in jail for his threats to kill.
    "Which part of shall not be infringed is so difficult to understand"?

    "Any and all restrictions on the bearing of arms in public places are nullified as per the Second Amendment"

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Nothing in the call indicated a suspicious person, the dispatcher should be fired also.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    If this happened to any of you guys, would you not demand that the officer lower his weapon? I would not be inclined to flat out submit. I'd definitely keep my hands up and would not make any sudden moves, and I'm sure I'd be taken down, but where is the fine line between submitting to proper authority and having a right to defend yourself against lethal force?

    It's been case-law backed that in an OC state you cannot be detained legally unless there is reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed or will be committed.

    http://www.fedagent.com/case-law-upd...ard-of-seizure
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    [ ... ] It's been case-law backed that in an OC state you cannot be detained legally unless there is reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed or will be committed.

    http://www.fedagent.com/case-law-upd...ard-of-seizure
    That's 4CA (in NC, SC, VA, MD, WV) moot in Nevada and in Michigan the incident jurisdiction.

    One does not argue PC/RAS on the street or at the point of a gun. Cops lie.
    Last edited by Nightmare; 09-14-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    If this happened to any of you guys, would you not demand that the officer lower his weapon? I would not be inclined to flat out submit. I'd definitely keep my hands up and would not make any sudden moves, and I'm sure I'd be taken down, but where is the fine line between submitting to proper authority and having a right to defend yourself against lethal force?

    It's been case-law backed that in an OC state you cannot be detained legally unless there is reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed or will be committed.

    http://www.fedagent.com/case-law-upd...ard-of-seizure
    Uh, no. Comply. Win in court.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    That's 4CA (in NC, SC, VA, MD, WV) moot in Nevada and in Michigan the incident jurisdiction.

    One does not argue PC/RAS on the street or at the point of a gun. Cops lie.
    Gotcha... currently searching for applicable case law then.

    Sorry for the false claim.

    As for arguing RAS, couldn't it be argued on site in 4CA?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    [ ... ] As for arguing RAS, couldn't it be argued on site in 4CA?
    With a known liar? Absolutely not! He'd force his will and claim resisting/obstruction, that you spit on him and called him names.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Gotcha... currently searching for applicable case law then.

    Sorry for the false claim.

    As for arguing RAS, couldn't it be argued on site in 4CA?
    Argue to what extent? The officer doesn't even have to tell you anything at that point.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Argue to what extent? The officer doesn't even have to tell you anything at that point.

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    Depends on the state. But he does have to explain it to a judge and jury. Hopefully creepy rectal crevices like this eventually end up in jail playing pick up the soap. I have no tolerance for law breakers whether they wear a badge or not. FILTH is what they are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Depends on the state. [ ... ]
    Will you provide citations to exemplar jurisdictions pro and con, please?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Uh, no. Comply. Win in court.
    Doesn't it suck just a little bit that it has to be this way? Comply, give up all your rights and liberty, probably have your gun confiscated, spend inordinate amounts of cash to retain a lawyer, and hope for the best. 'Murcuh! What about poor people?

    I'm just asking my somewhat ignorant questions to get some dialogue going. I shall sacrifice my ego for the cause of edumacashun.

    Upon doing a little more research,

    "See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 22 (1968); People v. Jenkins, 691 N.W.2d 759, 764 (Mich. 2005); People v. Custer, 630 N.W.2d 870, 876 (Mich. 2001).

    Note that in Michigan, the Michigan State Police have issued a legal update that clearly states that the open carry of a firearm is not a crime. Michigan also does not have a stop and ID law, meaning that the officer cannot stop someone and demand identification without reasonable suspicion for a crime."

    cite: http://excoplawstudent.wordpress.com...-open-carrier/
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  16. #16
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Will you provide citations to exemplar jurisdictions pro and con, please?
    When I worked in Illinois we were required by every dept I worked in to notify the person why they were stopped or arrested. This was also taught at the ISP academy, they never referenced law or case law, just do it.

    Other states I do not know, but the whole meaning of the word articulate would imply that a officer would be able to articulate.

    Let's not forget Indiana where people can legally resist a unlawful arrest, which would indicate a person had to know why they were being arrested or stopped.

    It just makes sense and it is poor police work to hassle people without explaining why.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-14-2014 at 05:49 PM.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    [ ... ] People v. Jenkins, 691 N.W.2d 759, 764 (Mich. 2005); People v. Custer, 630 N.W.2d 870, 876 (Mich. 2001)
    Thank you for the captions. I looked at the linked blog but saw no URL to 'Custer' or 'Jenkins', where did you read the cases, please?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    When I worked in Illinois we were required by every dept I worked in to notify the person why they were stopped or arrested. This was also taught at the ISP academy, they never referenced law or case law, just do it.

    Other states I do not know, but the whole meaning of the word articulate would imply that a officer would be able to articulate.

    Let's not forget Indiana where people can legally resist a unlawful arrest, which would indicate a person had to know why they were being arrested or stopped.

    It just makes sense and it is poor police work to hassle people without explaining why.
    Technically, a cop does not have to articulate his reason on the spot. But I would never hand my gun over when I know I've done nothing wrong - even asking for it implies that they want an advantage & possibly a desire to shoot. The 2nd amendment means nothing if they can take your gun away.

    I had 1 cop ask for my gun. I said no. Oddly enough, he did not go crazy but, since I was violating any law, just left.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Technically, a cop does not have to articulate his reason on the spot. But I would never hand my gun over when I know I've done nothing wrong - even asking for it implies that they want an advantage & possibly a desire to shoot. The 2nd amendment means nothing if they can take your gun away.

    I had 1 cop ask for my gun. I said no. Oddly enough, he did not go crazy but, since I was violating any law, just left.
    He has to have articulate suspicion on the spot or the stop is not legal. It can argued later whether he did or not, but he must have it. IMO if a officer cannot articulate it when asked he does not have it. In Indiana at least resisting would be legal.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    Thank you for the captions. I looked at the linked blog but saw no URL to 'Custer' or 'Jenkins', where did you read the cases, please?
    In my opinion, People vs. Jenkins is weak, but again I'm not a lawyer.

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/20051...20v.%20JENKINS

    People vs. Custer is maybe less relevant, but stronger in my opinion.

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/20011...%20v.%20CUSTER

    I still need to double and triple-read these again to fully understand though, but here are the links.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Thank you. I haven't noticed Leagle.com previously.

    I will read later at my leisure. ATM we're off to dinner and heavy drinking with neighbors, a retired professors of English couple. I'll be picking his brain on ideas for a Robert Burns Dinner this winter.
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    Disgusting. I wish he would have tried to defend himself as he was being kidnapped and humiliated by that thug.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    He has to have articulate suspicion on the spot or the stop is not legal. It can argued later whether he did or not, but he must have it. IMO if a officer cannot articulate it when asked he does not have it. In Indiana at least resisting would be legal.
    It behooves the officer to be able to articulate in court the RAS he claims to have had at the time he detained/arrested the plaintiff. I am not aware of any court ruling that mandates that he articulate the RAS on the spot at the time he effects the detention/arrest. There may be policy within a specific LEA for the officer to state his RAS at the time he effects a detention/arrest, athough I am more of the opinion that the requirement is to state in general terms the violation you are being detained/arrested for. ("You are under arrest for grand larceny, auto" does nothing to articulate the reassonable suspicion the officer had that you had in fact stolen an automobile.) See WalkingWolf's post on that - he never said he was required to state the RAS. It's technical/legalistic language all about what the meaning of "is" is.

    IOW, the officer can use the time between when he detains/arrests you and when he writes out his first report to come up with RAS. It is nice to believe that it is only a few cops that need that time to come up with RAS.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Pretty much, Terry V Ohio they must have RAS, the ruling does not spell out whether they articulate it at the time, never the less they still must have it. If they find RAS later and they are caught they may blow their case a it may cost them some bucks. A illegal arrest is a illegal arrest.

    Clearly in this case the police do not have RAS, the dispatcher admits to the caller that there is no RAS, yet the dispatcher inserts the RAS. The officers did not observe and acted solely on a second hand claim, which can be fatal. Primus seems to think in this case that a officer can pretend to have RAS making it legal. Hopefully his dept has a huge amount of funds to cover him.

    The officers exceeded their authority and the dispatcher lied. At the very least all should be fired, if it had resulted in a fatality or injury all should be prosecuted. I do not advocate jail house rape, but then it is out of my control. I do think it is a fitting end to the butt of a situation such as this. Pun intended.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Pretty much, Terry V Ohio they must have RAS, the ruling does not spell out whether they articulate it at the time, never the less they still must have it. If they find RAS later and they are caught they may blow their case a it may cost them some bucks. A illegal arrest is a illegal arrest.

    Clearly in this case the police do not have RAS, the dispatcher admits to the caller that there is no RAS, yet the dispatcher inserts the RAS. The officers did not observe and acted solely on a second hand claim, which can be fatal. Primus seems to think in this case that a officer can pretend to have RAS making it legal. Hopefully his dept has a huge amount of funds to cover him.

    The officers exceeded their authority and the dispatcher lied. At the very least all should be fired, if it had resulted in a fatality or injury all should be prosecuted. I do not advocate jail house rape, but then it is out of my control. I do think it is a fitting end to the butt of a situation such as this. Pun intended.
    Your fascination with jail house rape is kind if disturbing... But each to his own. It is a free country.

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