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Thread: gunbroker.com failed authorization

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    gunbroker.com failed authorization

    So I'm trying to bid on the S&W 1006 I've been talking about, but gunbroker.com has flagged my account (which I created for the sole purpose of purchasing this weapon) and there is only 3 hours left in the auction. It's all original, has its original box, mags, and paperwork, and is going for a totally legitimate price. I'm not sure if another will come along like this anytime soon, but I can't even send the seller a message, much less bid on it with my account flagged.

    The site says they are "very busy" and it might take 48 hours to get things straightened out. Yes, I tried contacting the site. There is no phone number unfortunately. Is there anything else I can do or are my hands tied? Could I find someone local with an FFL to buy it on my behalf or does that fall under the "only you can buy your gun" rule?

    Thanks in advance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    nice looking 10mm.
    Probably your association with this site got you on some domestic terrorist site.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    nice looking 10mm.
    Probably your association with this site got you on some domestic terrorist site.
    HAHA! Probably so! Maybe I should re-brand myself as a statist

    It's really unfortunate, honestly. Granted, there is still an hour left on the auction, but even +$50 at its current price, it's a great deal IMO. I'll probably end up paying +$150 for the same thing in a few days. We'll see how the auction ends!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    From a former 20+ yr ffl .. I don't see a problem with it....as I understand what you are asking

    asking:
    someone to use their GB acct to place a bid....and win
    then have you pay for the gun from the guy online
    then you contacting the ffl for the transfer

    I would think that its against GB policy and the go-between buyer or bidder may have their acct closed if complained about
    And you may have issues with the 2 ffls involved.

    I have bought and sold and transferred guns through GB. I, as a ffl, really would not have a problem with the transaction...the true buyer would come to my place, pay me my fee, and do the 4473. But I was a very "liberal" ffl, reading the law to meet its actual intent...I I would sell guns to people who could not buy guns in their jurisdiction just due to local laws (like handguns & those evil assault weapons to folks in Chgo .... I was visited by Chgo LEOs and I promptly kicked their butt out of my establishment telling them never to return--nothing ever came out of me selling handguns to Chgo folks, and I sold a lot of guns to Chgo residents when they had their handgun ban in place).

    So I don't see a legal issue involved here, just one of a policy issue and the willingness of a person to do what you ask.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I'll think of it as a blessing in disguise that it didn't work out. The price ended up going quite a bit higher than I really was hoping to pay. I'll know whether it was a good or bad thing after I scan the local market a little more thoroughly and contact a few FFL guys to see what the local value really is. I'm not holding out much hope to pay the number I'd like to pay, but maybe I'll find what I'm looking for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Could I find someone local with an FFL to buy it on my behalf or does that fall under the "only you can buy your gun" rule?.
    A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service himself, and the agent transfers the goods/services to that person after purchasing them. Straw purchases are legal except in cases where the ultimate receiver of goods or services uses those goods or services in the commission of a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser, or if (depending on recent rulings of the USSC) the ultimate possessor is not legally able to purchase the goods/services.
    Recently, in July 2014, the Supreme Court decided Abramski v. United States (No.12-1493). In Abramski, the Court held that a straw purchaser can be convicted under 18 U. S. C. §922(a)(6) for making false statements about “any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale” of a firearm, regardless of whether or not the true buyer could have purchased the gun without the straw. For an analysis of the opinion see this SCOTUSblog post.
    In some cases, the agent in the straw purchase may receive money or recompense from the ultimate possessor.



    I think this could be a difficult situation if someone complained and tried to bring charges. Someone show me how this could be legal under these circumstances.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    A straw purchase or nominee purchase is any purchase wherein an agent agrees to acquire a good or service for someone who is unable or unwilling to purchase the good or service himself, and the agent transfers the goods/services to that person after purchasing them. Straw purchases are legal except in cases where the ultimate receiver of goods or services uses those goods or services in the commission of a crime with the prior knowledge of the straw purchaser, or if (depending on recent rulings of the USSC) the ultimate possessor is not legally able to purchase the goods/services.
    Recently, in July 2014, the Supreme Court decided Abramski v. United States (No.12-1493). In Abramski, the Court held that a straw purchaser can be convicted under 18 U. S. C. §922(a)(6) for making false statements about “any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale” of a firearm, regardless of whether or not the true buyer could have purchased the gun without the straw. For an analysis of the opinion see this SCOTUSblog post.
    In some cases, the agent in the straw purchase may receive money or recompense from the ultimate possessor.



    I think this could be a difficult situation if someone complained and tried to bring charges. Someone show me how this could be legal under these circumstances.
    He tells me to buy gun. I buy gun with my money. I then decide I don't like it anymore. So arbitrary time goes by.... A week? I sell him gun through ffl. Im greedy so I mark it up 50 bucks.

    When I bought the gun it was for me so me filling out that I am the biywr/owner is completely truthful I just didn't like it a week later and I knew he might be interested. So I sold it to him through a ffl because he's legal to own the gun.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    He tells me to buy gun........ I buy gun with my money. I then decide I don't like it anymore. So arbitrary time goes by.... A week? I sell him gun through ffl. Im greedy so I mark it up 50 bucks.

    When I bought the gun it was for me so me filling out that I am the biywr/owner is completely truthful??? I just didn't like it a week later and I knew he might be interested. So I sold it to him through a ffl because he's legal to own the gun.
    I am still a bit stuck on this one Primus. It looks like A. asks B. to purchase a firearm. B knows it is for A but does not admit it on the form. The fact that a little "back story" (I am really buying for myself, not this guy) helps ease your mind does not alter the facts. Intent was to purchase for another. The fact that A asked for help on a public forum makes it more convoluted. An aggressive DA with time on his hands could make life difficult for a bunch of people.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I am still a bit stuck on this one Primus. It looks like A. asks B. to purchase a firearm. B knows it is for A but does not admit it on the form. The fact that a little "back story" (I am really buying for myself, not this guy) helps ease your mind does not alter the facts. Intent was to purchase for another. The fact that A asked for help on a public forum makes it more convoluted. An aggressive DA with time on his hands could make life difficult for a bunch of people.
    In this case,, I dont think either of you are right,,, and It does not need to be a straw purchase!

    If I was a friend of the OP, and I had an account with gunbroker.

    I could bid in his behalf,, pay the seller for the gun,, have it shipped to the OPs FFL,
    Then collect the money from the OP, and tell the FFL to transfer the gun to the OP,, as he is the "the buyer"!

    easy peasy...
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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    I am still a bit stuck on this one Primus. It looks like A. asks B. to purchase a firearm. B knows it is for A but does not admit it on the form. The fact that a little "back story" (I am really buying for myself, not this guy) helps ease your mind does not alter the facts. Intent was to purchase for another. The fact that A asked for help on a public forum makes it more convoluted. An aggressive DA with time on his hands could make life difficult for a bunch of people.
    I actually agree with you. Intent is the whole point. But my point was if he tells me in person to buy the gun and I agree then who knows the intent besides me and him?

    When I buy the gun I'd be truthful that it was mine. There is no law on how long you must own it. So a week later I don't like it. I then sell it to him through an ffl.

    I also agree asking about it on a public forum makes it a bit difficult....

    And yes a DA could "try" to make life difficult except the case would NEVER get to a DA. It only gets there when guys walk into the store and say "I'm buying this for my uncle...."

    For the record not advocating breaking any laws. Just showing a way to "follow" the law while still helping a friend. Especially since we are talking about good guys here.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    abramski case from a strawman perspective was discussed ad nausm out here and ppl believe he was targeted, but the court's found he accepted money from his uncle, who , if memory serves couldn't purchase a firearm himself, then purchased the firearm knowing full well the firearm was for his uncle, and filled out the 4473 and then turned the firearm over to his uncle.

    depends on someone's perspective if he was guilty or not...he was an idiot who thought as a former LE ALL of his nefarious shady activities he engaged in after retirement were above the law and they nailed him on several, this was just facet of his prosecution.

    ipse
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If I ask my LGS/FFL to find me a firearm. They do, and then sell it to me within the law it is not a straw purchase. As long as the person filling out the 4473 is the person receiving the firearm and the person has no legal disabilities I cannot see how it is a problem. The gun belongs to the FFL until he transfers it to buyer. A firearm purchased from a FFL cannot be possessed/owned by a person until they clear the background check, or have a permit in some states.

    I have not done business on GB in years, but it used to be that a paid internet address was required to bid.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-15-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    In this case,, I dont think either of you are right,,, and It does not need to be a straw purchase!

    If I was a friend of the OP, and I had an account with gunbroker.

    I could bid in his behalf,, pay the seller for the gun,, have it shipped to the OPs FFL,
    Then collect the money from the OP, and tell the FFL to transfer the gun to the OP,, as he is the "the buyer"!

    easy peasy...
    I would have the actual purchaser send the money .. not the bidder ... to avoid complications ... I don't think that the completion of the 4473 is required to arrest- just my opinion of course

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Seems to me that as long as I am legally allowed to purchase a firearm it's no harm no foul as long as the gun is for me. Also it seems to me that I can hire anyone with a FFL that I want to find me a weapon.

    That's the way I see it anyway. I never linked a specific auction, only named a specific firearm.

    Is it illegal to "hire" a buyer?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Seems to me that as long as I am legally allowed to purchase a firearm it's no harm no foul as long as the gun is for me. Also it seems to me that I can hire anyone with a FFL that I want to find me a weapon.

    That's the way I see it anyway. I never linked a specific auction, only named a specific firearm.

    Is it illegal to "hire" a buyer?
    That's pretty much what happens when you have a FFL order a gun from a distributor for you. Completely legal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That's pretty much what happens when you have a FFL order a gun from a distributor for you. Completely legal.
    This is my viewpoint. Say I want to purchase a gun on armslist or whatever. I ask somebody I know that has an account to do the purchase because I either don't want to make an account or I'm unable to make an account or some other reason. The person thus purchases the firearm, I pay that person and *we* have the firearm shipped to a FFL where *I* fill out the paperwork and take possession.

    Or maybe, I have a neighbor that has a WAC membership but I don't (this is actually true). I can't attend due to one reason or another but my neighbor can attend a WAC session and finds something that he/she knows that I have been looking for. My neighbor purchases the firearm, brings it home and then sells it to me knowing full well that I have a valid CPL in my possession.

    How are either of these illegal?
    Last edited by Grim_Night; 09-15-2014 at 09:02 PM.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    I think we have done a good job of interpreting the legality, but maybe we could go a step further and examine the site's policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    I actually agree with you. Intent is the whole point. But my point was if he tells me in person to buy the gun and I agree then who knows the intent besides me and him?
    For the record not advocating breaking any laws. Just showing a way to "follow" the law while still helping a friend. Especially since we are talking about good guys here.
    My point is that "We the People" ARE being targeted. The People seem to be an easy target when it comes to this kind of "malicious prosecution". I am at a point where I no longer have the trust in my government that I had in my youth. How many times do prosecutors go after the "Good Guys" because we are easier to abuse? The "when in doubt, prone 'em out" attitude is alive and well in the court system too, my friend.

    I buy from gunbroker. I have my weapons sent straight to my door.

    Submit ATF F 5310.16 (Form 7CR), Application for License (Collector of Curios or Relics), with the appropriate fee in accordance with the instructions on the form. These forms may be obtained from the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Center in Atlanta, Georgia, your local ATF office, or downloaded from ATF’s Internet site (www.atf.gov).
    [18 U.S.C 27 CFR 478.41(c)]
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    This is my viewpoint. Say I want to purchase a gun on armslist or whatever. I ask somebody I know that has an account to do the purchase because I either don't want to make an account or I'm unable to make an account or some other reason. The person thus purchases the firearm, I pay that person and *we* have the firearm shipped to a FFL where *I* fill out the paperwork and take possession.

    Or maybe, I have a neighbor that has a WAC membership but I don't (this is actually true). I can't attend due to one reason or another but my neighbor can attend a WAC session and finds something that he/she knows that I have been looking for. My neighbor purchases the firearm, brings it home and then sells it to me knowing full well that I have a valid CPL in my possession.

    How are either of these illegal?
    first scenario grim, you are using the word purchase inappropriately since when in fact the "purchase" doesn't actually occur until such time as you fill out the ATF Form 4473 the other individual would be considered your agent per se.

    the second scenario might, could, would, will draw the ire of the ATF and possibly land the neighbour into the houscow as well as lose their membership in WAC. WAC specifically states they follow Gun Show Notice ATF_I_5300 23 as outlined on WAC's website. https://washingtonarmscollectors.org...ow-guidelines/

    the key in the second scenario is who actually completes the AFT Form 4473, your neighbour?

    now let the splitting of pubs begin...

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    first scenario grim, you are using the word purchase inappropriately since when in fact the "purchase" doesn't actually occur until such time as you fill out the ATF Form 4473 the other individual would be considered your agent per se.

    the second scenario might, could, would, will draw the ire of the ATF and possibly land the neighbour into the houscow as well as lose their membership in WAC. WAC specifically states they follow Gun Show Notice ATF_I_5300 23 as outlined on WAC's website. https://washingtonarmscollectors.org...ow-guidelines/

    the key in the second scenario is who actually completes the AFT Form 4473, your neighbour?

    now let the splitting of pubs begin...

    ipse
    So if a dealer does not have the 4473 completed then a purchase has not occurred?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    So if a dealer does not have the 4473 completed then a purchase has not occurred?
    Oh pray tell us, one who has admitted several times in his postings to forum membership he has not followed BATF regulations during your 20+ years as an FFL...when,in your humble opinion and based on your broad based experience, is the firearm purchase consummated with an FFL?

    can you provide a legal example of when JQP consumer can receive a firearm from a FFL w/o completing said 4473?

    i for one await, with bated breath, your enlightened response, i am sure it will be coupled with, as standards established and dictated by forum rules, an appropriate cite.

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Oh pray tell us, one who has admitted several times in his postings to forum membership he has not followed BATF regulations during your 20+ years as an FFL...when,in your humble opinion and based on your broad based experience, is the firearm purchase consummated with an FFL?

    can you provide a legal example of when JQP consumer can receive a firearm from a FFL w/o completing said 4473?

    i for one await, with bated breath, your enlightened response, i am sure it will be coupled with, as standards established and dictated by forum rules, an appropriate cite.

    ipse

    Well, instead .. I will ask you .. if a 4473 is not completed, would that be something to hang on the buyer or the ffl?

    A sale can still occur w/o a 4473 being completed is the basis of my last post. And you must admit, it is possible.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well, instead .. I will ask you .. if a 4473 is not completed, would that be something to hang on the buyer or the ffl?

    A sale can still occur w/o a 4473 being completed is the basis of my last post. And you must admit, it is possible.
    sorry it can't occur since the purchaser is required to complete and sign their portions of the AFT form 4473 which is what i stated in my post! but let me check to assure i am not mispeaking...

    yepper......quote: "..."purchase" doesn't actually occur until such time as you fill out the ATF Form 4473 ..."

    Once the purchaser signs i could care less what the FFL does w/their portion...that is between themselves and the good agents at BATF when they come in for an inspection.

    ipse
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    sorry it can't occur since the purchaser is required to complete and sign their portions of the AFT form 4473 which is what i stated in my post! but let me check to assure i am not mispeaking...

    yepper......quote: "..."purchase" doesn't actually occur until such time as you fill out the ATF Form 4473 ..."

    Once the purchaser signs i could care less what the FFL does w/their portion...that is between themselves and the good agents at BATF when they come in for an inspection.

    ipse
    4473 is not a bill of sale, it's simply a firearms transfer record...

    a ffl can give a person a gun w/o a 4473 being completed (not talking legality of it but actually give it to them) ... if the buyer paid for it, the buyer is the legal owner of the gun...it may not be documented as it should, but the ffl would not be able to sue the buyer for return of the gun.

    4473 form states its reasons right on the form..it is not a record of sale, it is used as a BR CHK.

    Other state laws also may apply .. I assure you that as a ffl and responsible citizen, I never sent the state any forms that they required to be sent to them as part of what I considered to be a registration scheme of the state. This lack of completing forms did not change the owner of the gun. I got paid and I gave them their guns.

    Libertarians, true die hard Libertarians, do not just talk the talk - they walk the walk. I've walked my walk and will continue to do so.

    And in many states, guns can be bought and sold through private purchases w/o any BR chk or 4473 form -- the ownership does transfer however...
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 09-17-2014 at 02:58 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    and how does buyer's signature block (block 16) play into you, as an FFL selling a firearm to JQP work for you while you are doing your walk?

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

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