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Thread: St. Louis - Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk - Oct 25, 2014

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    St. Louis - Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk - Oct 25, 2014

    I am organizing an Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk in downtown St. Louis on October 25, 2014.

    The walk will begin at the Citygarden/Gateway Mall and continue to the Gateway Arch, where pictures will no doubt be taken, then return to the Citygarden/Gateway Mall. Participants are invited to carry holstered sidearms and/or slung longarms. Lunch plans are in progress, and may well involve a box lunch.

    I have contacted the City Counselor (head lawyer) for the City of St. Louis, and will post his response(s) and contact(s) when I receive them.

    Under Section 23, Article 1, as amended by Amendment 5, such a walk should be considered in compliance with the law. Whether STL wants to view things that way, or fight it, I have no idea.

    Some obvious questions are likely to be asked, so let me get a head start on answering them:

    a) Why am I doing this? -The new law needs to be tested, I have family and friends in MO, and I'm going to be out that way then. You've got a great new tool, and it needs to be used sooner rather than later.

    b) What do I know about open carry walks/open carry activism? - Ask the City of Cincinnati, Clear Channel, the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce, the University of Cincinnati, the Ohio State University, and the Ohio Highway State Patrol @ the Ohio Statehouse.

    c) What do I know about Missouri law? - Certainly not everything (and I could use your collective help in that respect), but enough to generally know that STL is either going to have to stand on their head to claim that such a walk is illegal and threaten participants with arrest (if they dare), or they'll capitulate.

    d) Where are we going to eat? - I don't know. I could use knowledgeable help in that respect.

    e) This is going to totally ruin things! Are you crazy?? - No, but I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't expect some blowback. Bring it on!
    Last edited by BB62; 09-16-2014 at 05:53 PM.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    As I believe that the normalization of openly carried firearms is best achieved by simply participating in mundane, everyday behavior, I doubt I will participate in any peacocking.

    Parades for the sake of parading just aren't my thing. If I decide to go downtown, it will be because I feel like going downtown.

    I'm not going to call the authorities and inform them that I will be wearing a plaid shirt.

    Know why?

    Because wearing a plaid shirt is normal behavior.

    I'm not going to call the authorities and inform them I plan on wearing tennis shoes.

    Know why?

    Because wearing tennis shoes is normal behavior.

    Why the heck would I call the authorities and inform them of any other normal behavior?

    Therefore, why would I call the authorities, plan a parade, ask people to keep long guns slung (when the discussion of LGOC is against forum rules in states that have legal OC of handguns), and parade around like a travelling circus....

    ...for something I want to portray as "normal" behavior?

    PARADES ARE NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    I'm really confused, who is having a parade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    As I believe that the normalization of openly carried firearms is best achieved by simply participating in mundane, everyday behavior, I doubt I will participate in any peacocking...
    Well, I have to give it to you - at least you posted something, despite its vacuousness.

    Your mindset is common for those who live in states without gun rights, and where citizens, via one means or another, suddenly are "granted" them. Oh well, maybe you'll see the bigger picture over time, and maybe you won't.

    I guess I'll take your name off the guest list, but thank you for posting.

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Well, I have to give it to you - at least you posted something, despite its vacuousness.

    Your mindset is common for those who live in states without gun rights, and where citizens, via one means or another, suddenly are "granted" them. Oh well, maybe you'll see the bigger picture over time, and maybe you won't.

    I guess I'll take your name off the guest list, but thank you for posting.
    I live here in Missouri. I understand the views of some that may want to do something that may appear to rub THEIR faces in it. I have OFTEN found out the hard way, that just because you are right and can do something, doesn't always mean you are right to do it. I myself will just carry on as usual, Ocing, trying to appear normal to those LOOKING for anything, so they cant holler I TOLD YOU SO. I'm for educating the public on THEIR gun rights, but by massing a group, with long guns slung over their shoulders..... people WILL have an a opinion of the group, without even hearing one word spoken. Everybody has an opinion on this matter, and what they want or should do, but it may start a chain of events, that possible will affect things they never even thought about. I am ONE OF YOU GUYS, I know the struggle we have had to get where we are, but I'm also aware of what those who DONT KNOW, and DONT CARE. I have been in many "groups" meeting somewhere OCing to educate those who don't know THEIR gun rights, pass out info,ect... I could have carried a AK over my shoulder, I would have had that right, but had I, most if not all of our encounters with those uninformed would have been negative. If you decide to parade in downtown St. Louis, as you said,
    I wish you well.
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Please don't attempt to turn this into a discussion of the pros and cons of what firearms are acceptable for the WALK (not parade). I don't want to tread on the hospitality of our collective host any more than I already have - except to say that the walk isn't about long gun carry, it's about the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms that law abiding citizens have within your state's borders, and the acceptance by the powers-that-be that you DO have that right.

    If you or anyone else wants to debate or pontificate on the subject of long arm carry during the walk, please post your thoughts on the subject to the Facebook event page I will put up later today.

    As to your claim that "...people WILL have an a opinion of the group, without even hearing one word spoken...." that's true of the public's reaction to open carry and open carriers, singly or in a group, regardless of the firearm(s) carried. I've participated in and organized a number of walks. I also open carry quite a bit, and have done so for at least 10 years. Public reaction varies, regardless of whether I'm alone or in a group, or what I'm carrying. Although I haven't carried a longarm outside a group environment, and always outdoors unless I've just come into a pre-arranged eating establishment, it's a fact of life that whether I'm noticeably carrying a derringer or a S&W 500 Magnum that some people are curious, some don't care, some are scared, and some are repulsed.

    This walk will go a long way towards "showing me" (and lots of others) how far the newly amended Article 23, Section 1 goes.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-17-2014 at 06:38 AM.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Well, I have to give it to you - at least you posted something, despite its vacuousness.

    Your mindset is common for those who live in states without gun rights, and where citizens, via one means or another, suddenly are "granted" them. Oh well, maybe you'll see the bigger picture over time, and maybe you won't.

    I guess I'll take your name off the guest list, but thank you for posting.
    vac·u·ous


    /ˈvakyəwəs/


    adjective: having or showing a lack of thought or intelligence; mindless.



    synonyms:

    silly, inane, unintelligent, insipid, foolish, stupid, fatuous, idiotic, brainless, witless, vapid, vacant, empty-headed;


    One of us is advocating putting on a "dog and pony show", simply for the purpose of parading Missouri's newfound (and painstakingly worked for) ability to open carry in places it was banned due to lack of pre-emption, solely in order to rub it in the faces of those who might not be aware that SB 656 is now law.

    The other of us is simply glad to enjoy the ability to open carry in the few places we couldn't before.

    I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone of the severity of other people's vaucuousness. "Living in glass houses", "pot calling kettle", and all that.

    Your mindset is common for those who live in states without gun rights.
    I was unaware that Ohio allowed any person, from any state, licenced or not, to carry a firearm in any manner, anywhere within their vehicle like they can in Missouri.

    Heck, I was unaware whether or not my 18 year old niece could carry there like they can in Missouri.

    Of course, that's if Ohio recognizes Missouri's CCW permit. One has to research whether or not Ohio has reciprocity. Unlike Missouri that recognizes all state's permits.

    Tell me again how I live in a state without gun rights. Of course, don't do it while drinking alcohol there in Ohio. You'd have to come to Missouri where we have no gun rights in order to lawfully carry with a BAC over .08

    The more you talk, the more hot air you seem to be pumping into your own reputation.

    You did ask everyone to "bring it", did you not?

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Missouri the "Show-Me" state, I guess not.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    It will certainly be interesting to watch this event on the local six PM news broadcasts. I recommend that all participants have a valid "permit" and photo ID in their possession. Compliance with current law is essential.

    http://www.slpl.lib.mo.us/cco/code/data/t15130.htm
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    No thanks, I will just OC as usual with the exception of ordinance checking, that is the nice part.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    No thanks, I will just OC as usual with the exception of ordinance checking, that is the nice part.

    +1

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    ...One of us is advocating putting on a "dog and pony show", simply for the purpose of parading Missouri's newfound (and painstakingly worked for) ability to open carry in places it was banned due to lack of pre-emption, solely in order to rub it in the faces of those who might not be aware that SB 656 is now law.

    The other of us is simply glad to enjoy the ability to open carry in the few places we couldn't before...
    Ah, so now you're going to get inside my head and tell me what MY motivation is eh? Left completely out of your mind reading response is an answer to this question "What is the interplay between Amendment 5 and its modification of the MO Constitution and what you focus on, which is SB 656? It sure seems to me that you now have constitutional carry, but one would never know it from reading your response. How about if you think about that rather than continuing your faulty mind-meld?


    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    ...blah, blah, blah - your state vs my state...
    Yes, Missourians have a couple of rights that Ohioans don't, but since the the subject matter of this thread is the RIGHT to open carry, which citizens DO NOT have under SB 656, but have gained under Amendment 5's modification of Article 23, Section 1, why don't we stick to discussing the right to open carry rather than the privilege to do so?


    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    ...The more you talk, the more hot air you seem to be pumping into your own reputation...
    <sigh>


    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    ...You did ask everyone to "bring it", did you not?
    Yes, I did. I hope you will now "bring it" on the subject that should be clearer to you than it was previously.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-17-2014 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Ah, so now you're going to get inside my head and tell me what MY motivation is eh? ...
    Until the court rules on any anti-OC laws we will not know how A5 affects OC. Many here in Missouri do in fact hold a very similar opinion, A5 makes MO a constitutional carry state. This does not mean that the local cops/prosecutor/judges...and juries will agree. There is a case from many moons ago that would not today, in my view, hold sway over the constitutionality of 21.750.3 OC clause. We shall see.

    Bring video/audio recording devices. Good luck.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ...There is a case from many moons ago that would not today, in my view, hold sway over the constitutionality of 21.750.3 OC clause...
    Please provide a link (to the case), and thank you.

    Code section: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0210000750.HTM
    Last edited by BB62; 09-17-2014 at 11:53 AM. Reason: edited to add code section

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    Regular Member Richieg150's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post

    Bring video/audio recording devices. Good luck.
    Best advice I think we all can agree on...
    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:
    Psalm 144:2 My goodness, and my fortress; my high tower, and my deliverer; my shield, and he in whom I trust; who subdueth my people under me. Pro 14:15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Ah, so now you're going to get inside my head and tell me what MY motivation is eh?
    Since you started it, I find it rather hypocritical for you to complain about it. Did you not state the following?

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Your mindset is common for those who live in states without gun rights, and where citizens, via one means or another, suddenly are "granted" them. Oh well, maybe you'll see the bigger picture over time, and maybe you won't.
    My mindset? You're certain of my mindset? Who is trying to get inside who's head? Once again: "Hello, Kettle! This is Pot. You're black."


    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Left completely out of your mind reading response is an answer to this question "What is the interplay between Amendment 5 and its modification of the MO Constitution and what you focus on, which is SB 656?"
    That question? I fail to see where it was asked. Evidently, I actually do need to be a mind reader, otherwise, how am I supposed to answer questions unless they are asked?

    So far, we have:

    1) Someone who wishes to parade around armed just to provoke a reaction in order to see what the response will be accusing people who simply desire to open carry in a normal manner without a shindig, bullhornds, fanfare, and announcements to the local authorities of being "vacuous".

    2) Someone from a state with stricter gun laws preaching about how we Missourians live in a state without gun rights.

    3) Someone who begins a conversation with the words, "Your mindset is common....." getting all hot and bothered about someone else trying to be a mind reader.

    4) Someone who wishes to discuss a specific point, not even posing the point he wishes to discuss. (Which would require the person he lampoons about being a mind reader to ACTUALLY BE a mind reader to know what he was talking about.)

    Next, he'll find some reason to accuse me of being a hypocrite.

    I suggest, if he wants to be angry about all the things he complains about, he should go find a freekin' mirror to yell at.

    However, since he finally has gotten around to bringing up the point he wishes to discuss.......

    I actually have to agree with what he has finally decided to mention:

    Nobody has determined the observable effects of Amendment 5's passage. Yes, it will be interesting to see how the state responds to the new requirement to ensure Missourian's 2nd Amendment protections. Since the state is now required to review law with strict scrutiny, and the phrase "....but this shall not permit the wearing of concealed weapons" has been removed from the state constitution, technically, Missouri does have Constitutional Carry.

    However, as I have a CCW permit, I can now carry in any manner I choose throughout the state thanks to SB 656. Yes, a CCW permit turns a right into a privelege. I'm not as vacuous as I've been accused of being. However, I do hope to be a little more succinct and have my deliberations a little better understood than simply blathering out the first thing that pops into my head without regard to their actual meaning.

    I'll leave it to someone who hasn't gone through the permitting process to determine if the state actually does follow through with their new requirement to ensure its citizens constitutional rights as they would only have the constitution to protect them.

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    While I fully agree that A5 appears to be Constitutional Carry within Missouri, I do not personally have the money or time available to fight the inevitable lawsuit if one decides to push the issue without a CCW permit.

    OP: If you have the money, time, and inclination to travel from Ohio to Missouri for court dates to fight the first fight, more power to you. But don't expect to have a large assemblage of people to come with you in the act.
    "Somebody ever tries to kill you, you try and kill em right back!" - Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    While I fully agree that A5 appears to be Constitutional Carry within Missouri, I do not personally have the money or time available to fight the inevitable lawsuit if one decides to push the issue without a CCW permit.

    OP: If you have the money, time, and inclination to travel from Ohio to Missouri for court dates to fight the first fight, more power to you...
    I do and I will, if that's how the powers-that-be want to handle this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    ...But don't expect to have a large assemblage of people to come with you in the act.
    I had no such expectation, but I do wonder who the people are who pushed for Amendment 5? What did they think its passage would mean? If you have any insight or links to who those people are, please post them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlite27 View Post
    ...Nobody has determined the observable effects of Amendment 5's passage. Yes, it will be interesting to see how the state responds to the new requirement to ensure Missourian's 2nd Amendment protections. Since the state is now required to review law with strict scrutiny, and the phrase "....but this shall not permit the wearing of concealed weapons" has been removed from the state constitution, technically, Missouri does have Constitutional Carry...
    (my bold above)

    And just how will this be determined?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I do and I will, if that's how the powers-that-be want to handle this.

    I had no such expectation, but I do wonder who the people are who pushed for Amendment 5? What did they think its passage would mean? If you have any insight or links to who those people are, please post them.
    may not be the best place to start, but it is a start.

    http://ballotpedia.org/Missouri_Righ...August_2014%29
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Please provide a link (to the case), and thank you.

    Code section: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0210000750.HTM
    Cape v. Joyce.

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/19949...U%20v.%20JOYCE

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...16#post2091016

    Post #166 summarizes my take on the opinion.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Exclamation Event Posting Change request

    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Please remove the long gun component. We here in Missouri are attempting restore liberty by getting concealable firearms (pistols) OC normalized.

    Thanks.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Please remove the long gun component. We here in Missouri are attempting restore liberty by getting concealable firearms (pistols) OC normalized.

    Thanks.
    Just as a test, let's say I do so. Let's see a show of hands for how many people are willing to show up for such an event AND refuse to provide ID if asked, while openly carrying sidearms.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-17-2014 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Just as a test, let's say I do so. Let's see a show of hands for how many people are willing to show up for such an event AND refuse to provide ID if asked, while openly carrying sidearms.

    Well I am starting to struggle with this a bit.

    There are a few folks you are opting to argue with that have been instrumental in working for OC rights in MO. We actually have a pretty good group of folks and have had meetings ranging from 2 to 50 in the St Louis area, KC has also had a strong showing though I have never made it over there myself. I know several meetings in excess of 20 have taken place.

    Since folks have spent coin, written countless letters, attended meetings, talked to legislators, made phone calls, made trips to the capitol, put monies in campaign coffers, and all around supported OC for mow, why did you expect them to follow you down town to stir up a bunch of crap after begging for permissions?

    You seem hellbent on holding some sort of event to be a legal irritant to the police and I for one fail to understand why. As all you have likely done is plant a seed in the mind of the atty without regard for the political leaning and now they will plan on how to deal with the "event" and go forward from there as they see fit. The officers will be stuck between a rock and a hard spot because they will be under the political pressure without regard for their own thoughts and they will just simply wish it was not happening at all. On one side you have the politicians screwing with them and on the other you are screwing with them as a threat of a civil suit.

    Why you think after all the work folks have put in you are going to swoop in and put on some grand show that is of any interest to the folks who got it done is kind of silly. As one of the folks involved in making things happen I can assure you I am not really nice enough to organize such an event myself as I rub a lot of folks the wrong way, but I NEVER pretend otherwise either.

    We fought to see change because we could not walk our dogs some 30 yards because the muni on the other side of the street restricted it which was stupid, we fought to get change because it should not matter where you are located as to your ability to defend yourself and make the choices on carry YOU see fit. We did not fight the fight to plan and plot events to create issues for the police or local governments and I reckon you are going to fall seriously short of your goals for the event as it appears that is what you are trying to do.

    As for not showing the police ID, well I just treat that about the same as your event, I simply ask them to leave. t is really not some kind of big deal to be polite and ask them to leave you alone and then ignore any additional questions. They get that hint just fine and they make all the radio calls etc and then move along politely wishing you a nice day.

    Your intent may have been different, but perception is reality and that is how I perceive your event and my response to it.

    Welcome to the "show me state" and sir, when it comes to OC in MO, I do not believe you have shown me or anyone else doing the daily work over the last several years anything but an antagonistic position and it ain't sellin.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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