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Thread: Memphis School District

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    Memphis School District

    Does anyone here live in the Memphis, MI area? I open carried at the elementary school yesterday while dropping my son off for his first day of preschool and apparently it caused quite a stir. I open carried again tonight to my daughter's Lego Robotics Team meeting and had a several minutes long conversation with the principal (that was not recorded, I will try to get a recording device this weekend) where she informed me she knew I wasn't a threat, she understands my rights, and she can't do anything about me carrying but she's in contact with the school board, other districts in the area, and the DA to see if something can be done to restrict carry in the school. This is my first time dealing with anything like this, my family and I are relatively new to the area, and we don't know anybody here, so I'm not sure what, if any, public support/opposition I could expect (or if the general public usually doesn't notice/care and this is a case of small, squeaky wheel and misguided school admin) if the district decides to push it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    Does anyone here live in the Memphis, MI area? I open carried at the elementary school yesterday while dropping my son off for his first day of preschool and apparently it caused quite a stir. I open carried again tonight to my daughter's Lego Robotics Team meeting and had a several minutes long conversation with the principal (that was not recorded, I will try to get a recording device this weekend) where she informed me she knew I wasn't a threat, she understands my rights, and she can't do anything about me carrying but she's in contact with the school board, other districts in the area, and the DA to see if something can be done to restrict carry in the school. This is my first time dealing with anything like this, my family and I are relatively new to the area, and we don't know anybody here, so I'm not sure what, if any, public support/opposition I could expect (or if the general public usually doesn't notice/care and this is a case of small, squeaky wheel and misguided school admin) if the district decides to push it.
    See this link: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t-against-K-12

    If they try anything further, i.e. trespass, harassment, etc. you might want to ask MOC if you may be added as a Plaintiff (or at least serve as another bona-fide example of why the injunction should be granted).

    Meanwhile, still carry but perhaps do your best to look good, non-confrontational plus friendly & confident (all as you undoubtedly have been). Carry a running audio recorder and bring along a witness at all times - someone who can whip out a video camera if needed.

    Thank you very much and good luck!
    Last edited by OC4me; 09-17-2014 at 02:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    See this link: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t-against-K-12

    If they try anything further, i.e. trespass, harassment, etc. you might want to ask MOC if you may be added as a Plaintiff (or at least serve as another bona-fide example of why the injunction should be granted).

    Meanwhile, still carry but perhaps do your best to look good, non-confrontational plus friendly & confident (all as you undoubtedly have been). Carry a running audio recorder and bring along a witness at all times - someone who can whip out a video camera if needed.

    Thank you very much and good luck!
    Ditto! +1
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    See this link: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...t-against-K-12

    If they try anything further, i.e. trespass, harassment, etc. you might want to ask MOC if you may be added as a Plaintiff (or at least serve as another bona-fide example of why the injunction should be granted).

    Meanwhile, still carry but perhaps do your best to look good, non-confrontational plus friendly & confident (all as you undoubtedly have been). Carry a running audio recorder and bring along a witness at all times - someone who can whip out a video camera if needed.

    Thank you very much and good luck!
    Thanks for the link. I haven't had the time to get back to the forum in a couple of days, but I'm glad I'm not the only one having issues and that someone is willing to take up the case. A recorder is definitely in my future, but I can't always have a witness for video. I won't stop doing what I've been doing. I've never been one to bend easily when I know I'm in the right and knowing there is a suit in the works just gives me more confidence!

    Just out of curiosity, as I wasn't a MI resident when the law was written and passed, but was it intentionally worded to allow for open carry or is it something that was overlooked?

    Thanks for the encouragement!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    Thanks for the link. I haven't had the time to get back to the forum in a couple of days, but I'm glad I'm not the only one having issues and that someone is willing to take up the case. A recorder is definitely in my future, but I can't always have a witness for video. I won't stop doing what I've been doing. I've never been one to bend easily when I know I'm in the right and knowing there is a suit in the works just gives me more confidence!

    Just out of curiosity, as I wasn't a MI resident when the law was written and passed, but was it intentionally worded to allow for open carry or is it something that was overlooked?

    Thanks for the encouragement!
    Short version: It may have been noticed by some but the thought was that people just do not "open carry" except as required by an employer (police, guard, armed courier, etc).

    Long version:
    From what I understand, before MI went "(almost) shall issue", local law enforcement could put restrictions on where one could carry and there were also some who put no restrictions on the licenses. Limits were listed on the license. When everything changed to "(almost) shall issue", the difference in the law was noticed by some but wasn't a major concern for various reasons. For example, no one would "open carry" unless they had a job that required it. So, a person who was an armoured courier works with general CPL and since he/she open carries, they don't need to worry about it. Reserve deputies also fell into just such a group. They are not police officers and, at least at the time of the original law, were not given an exemption to the no cc zones. They really were the only "open carriers" so the impact of being allowed to possess the pistol in a "no cc zone" was minimal.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Thanks, Dr. Todd, that makes sense.

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    MCL 750.237a(5)(c) AND MCL 123.1102 Preempt and Preclude any further Action by Memphis School District.

    Furthermore, The State of Michigan Allows Open Carry of a Firearm in any Place Listed under MCL 750.234d by a
    CPL Holder, under MCL 750.234d(2)(c).

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    MCL 750.237a(5)(c) AND MCL 123.1102 Preempt and Preclude any further Action by Memphis School District.

    Furthermore, The State of Michigan Allows Open Carry of a Firearm in any Place Listed under MCL 750.234d by a
    CPL Holder, under MCL 750.234d(2)(c).
    I need to print that out and memorize the statute numbers. I had a "conversation" with the St. Clair Co. Prosecuting Attorney after Lego Robots in the school parking lot today.

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    Just to update: I haven't been approached by anyone about carrying at the school since my last post and the Lego team is doing well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    she informed me she knew I wasn't a threat, she understands my rights, and she can't do anything about me carrying but she's in contact with the school board, other districts in the area, and the DA to see if something can be done to restrict carry in the school. .
    Did you ask her what she planned on doing to keep the criminals from carrying there? Perhaps you could suggest that they try that plan first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    MCL 750.237a(5)(c) AND MCL 123.1102 Preempt and Preclude any further Action by Memphis School District.

    Furthermore, The State of Michigan Allows Open Carry of a Firearm in any Place Listed under MCL 750.234d by a
    CPL Holder, under MCL 750.234d(2)(c).
    And Article one, section six of the Michigan Constitution nullifies all of the above. Too bad the oathbreakers dont know why they took one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    I need to print that out and memorize the statute numbers. I had a "conversation" with the St. Clair Co. Prosecuting Attorney after Lego Robots in the school parking lot today.
    Respectfully, that wasn't the time and place for that talk. He was out on a recon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    Respectfully, that wasn't the time and place for that talk. He was out on a recon.
    You were there Neil? How do you know or not know if that was the time to talk?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    Respectfully, that wasn't the time and place for that talk. He was out on a recon.
    I suspect he was there for a couple reasons, mainly: 1. His kids go to school with my kids, so he has a right, as a parent, to be concerned with such things. I see nothing wrong with him at least wanting to know who the MWAG at school is and I conversed with him as I would with any other parent that wanted to have a reasonable discussion with me. 2. The principal called him to come see me as a concerned parent, hoping he would bring with him whatever clout she thought he had as County Prosecutor. Doesn't make a difference to me what he does for a living or who he works for, but nice try on their part.

    He wanted to have a conversation and I felt I would have been doing myself a disservice by refusing simply because he has an office door with his name on it at the courthouse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    Did you ask her what she planned on doing to keep the criminals from carrying there? Perhaps you could suggest that they try that plan first.
    She asked me what I thought she should do about it, and to be honest, I wasn't really prepared for that. I gave her a few ideas, with very little care or enthusiasm, that probably would have been helpful in keeping a few bed wetters dry at night, but she was only interested in ways to keep guns out of schools, and not really interested in keeping kids safe at school. I even mentioned that the day we registered my daughter at the school in March when we moved, there was another parent in there carrying concealed (possibly an off duty cop, 5.11 pants, polo shirt, and a handgun printing at about the 4:30 position), and that he was breaking the law by doing so, but we aren't screening and searching all the parents that come through for what they may be doing illegally. Instead, she's there worrying about the ONE GUY in the whole district that is willing to do it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    She asked me what I thought she should do about it, and to be honest, I wasn't really prepared for that. I gave her a few ideas, with very little care or enthusiasm, that probably would have been helpful in keeping a few bed wetters dry at night, but she was only interested in ways to keep guns out of schools, and not really interested in keeping kids safe at school. I even mentioned that the day we registered my daughter at the school in March when we moved, there was another parent in there carrying concealed (possibly an off duty cop, 5.11 pants, polo shirt, and a handgun printing at about the 4:30 position), and that he was breaking the law by doing so, but we aren't screening and searching all the parents that come through for what they may be doing illegally. Instead, she's there worrying about the ONE GUY in the whole district that is willing to do it right.
    She definitely seems like a feel-good, knee-jerk reaction anti.

    My $.02: You could try asking her "How would you make sure no one, including and especially a deranged lunatic, is able to simply walk past the stickers and signs like the killers did in Newtown, or at Columbine? How would you go about making sure that people who disregard the lives of others don't simply disregard stickers?"
    Then, you could watch her stammer and stutter, assuming she is able to comprehend the critical point that criminals, by definition, do not obey the law. But if you telling her about a guy CCing (illegally) caused no lights to go off in her head, I wouldn't hope for much logical thinking on her part.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    I suspect he was there for a couple reasons, mainly: 1. His kids go to school with my kids, so he has a right, as a parent, to be concerned with such things. I see nothing wrong with him at least wanting to know who the MWAG at school is and I conversed with him as I would with any other parent that wanted to have a reasonable discussion with me. 2. The principal called him to come see me as a concerned parent, hoping he would bring with him whatever clout she thought he had as County Prosecutor. Doesn't make a difference to me what he does for a living or who he works for, but nice try on their part.

    He wanted to have a conversation and I felt I would have been doing myself a disservice by refusing simply because he has an office door with his name on it at the courthouse.

    lol, you still trust them. how quaint. You'll learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    She asked me what I thought she should do about it, and to be honest, I wasn't really prepared for that. I gave her a few ideas, with very little care or enthusiasm, that probably would have been helpful in keeping a few bed wetters dry at night, but she was only interested in ways to keep guns out of schools, and not really interested in keeping kids safe at school. I even mentioned that the day we registered my daughter at the school in March when we moved, there was another parent in there carrying concealed (possibly an off duty cop, 5.11 pants, polo shirt, and a handgun printing at about the 4:30 position), and that he was breaking the law by doing so, but we aren't screening and searching all the parents that come through for what they may be doing illegally. Instead, she's there worrying about the ONE GUY in the whole district that is willing to do it right.

    You're preaching to the choir. Been there, done that.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Let's be clear, on the schools part this is about CONTROL, not safety. Their issue is with a lowly commoner who knows the law & will not submit to their "wishes". My prediction - they will quietly trespass you. Then hope you don't have the $ to prove them wrong in court.

    I truly hope the district proves me wrong. I'll take it even further and hope they issue a blanket statement to all in the district that the school honors and abides by ALL MI laws.

    Insert impossible dream music here

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-KufFjcWOUQ
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    It's ironic that schools are both where the second amendment is taught, and fought against the hardest.

    It is a truly unforgettable thing to watch the childrens eyes when the light comes on as they realize that they are being taught one thing while watching the school administration do another.

    The kids dont forget either.
    Last edited by Plan B; 10-19-2014 at 08:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    It's ironic that schools are both where the second amendment is taught, and fought against the hardest.

    It is a truly unforgettable thing to watch the childrens eyes when the light comes on as they realize that they are being taught one thing while watching the school administration do another.

    The kids dont forget either.
    They should be taught the life-long, psychological effects they may suffer due to biting their pizza and assembling Lego's into what appears to be a gun. Doesn't anyone think of the "children" anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj_51 View Post
    I suspect he was there for a couple reasons, mainly: 2. The principal called him to come see me as a concerned parent, hoping he would bring with him whatever clout she thought he had as County Prosecutor. Doesn't make a difference to me what he does for a living or who he works for, but nice try on their part.

    He wanted to have a conversation and I felt I would have been doing myself a disservice by refusing simply because he has an office door with his name on it at the courthouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    lol, you still trust them. how quaint. You'll learn.
    Please note the bold text in the quote from my previous post. I am well aware he was there hoping to rattle my cage with his fancy County title. I'm sure he was the first person the principal called the first time I had to talk to her, too. I'm plenty savvy enough to know when the reindeer games have started. I could also tell by his body language and tone of voice that he really does believe all the BS rhetoric he was trying to shoot my way about gun free schools being safer, so, yeah, I believe he was there, in part, as a concerned parent and member of the community. He has also been a member of the community for DECADES vs my family moving here in March. I guess I should have just told him to get lost and been on my way. Then I could be known as the jerk with the gun that wouldn't even talk to Mike, and was quite rude, to boot(whether or not I would have actually been rude is irrelevant, small towns like to talk). Instead, I humored the man and heard him out, and I hope I have started projecting to the community that I am a reasonable, approachable, and articulate person. As much as I hate to admit it, I am now part of the Public Relations machine for Open Carry. That doesn't mean I trust him, or anyone else that works for the school, town, or county.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Let's be clear, on the schools part this is about CONTROL, not safety. Their issue is with a lowly commoner who knows the law & will not submit to their "wishes". My prediction - they will quietly trespass you. Then hope you don't have the $ to prove them wrong in court.

    I truly hope the district proves me wrong. I'll take it even further and hope they issue a blanket statement to all in the district that the school honors and abides by ALL MI laws.

    Insert impossible dream music here

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-KufFjcWOUQ
    I hope they prove you wrong, too. So far I haven't had any more problems, even though the Lego Team has added another weekly meeting to the schedule. I talked with another parent at the school the other day and word around town is most people were only interested until they realized it was legal, and now the talk has died down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    It's ironic that schools are both where the second amendment is taught, and fought against the hardest.
    It's also ironic that these administrators and officials are harassing and bullying people "for the children", when the children that I interact with every week couldn't care less about my firearm if they tried.

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    It's been a few weeks, so I thought I'd give an update.

    So far, so good. Lego Robotics twice a week after hours and parent teacher conferences last week. The principal hasn't said much more than "Hi." Hopefully this is the way it stays.

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