Hey guys I am new here and have a question I need answered....

tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

Okay guys I have a question. I am 20 years old,never convicted of any crime and not prohibited from owning a firearm. I own an AR-15, 9mm handgun, and an old .22 rifle. I live in Tennessee.
My question is regarding the law that was passed earlier this year in July regarding possession of a firearm in your vehicle. I know it has always been that you could keep a firearm in you vehicle with ammo in it if you had a concealed or carry permit,but the new law says you no longer have to have a permit to keep a gun in your vehicle as long as you are not prohibited from owning a firearm and as long as you own the vehicle. Its basically an extension of the castle doctrine saying you have the right to defend your home and your car is your property just as your home is. I have kept my handgun in my console loaded ever since this law was passed because you don't have to be 21 to own a handgun in TN,you only have to be 21 to get a carry permit,and I legally own the vehicle. I got pulled over the other day by a State Trooper for speeding and I informed him once he approached my car about my handgun,he asked me if I had a carry permit then asked me if I was 21,I replied no to both questions. He then asked me to get out of the vehicle so I did,he then got into my vehicle and took my handgun unloaded it and went back to his car,another officer arrived and they both told me you cannot own a handgun under 21 which I believe is not true at all. I had the Bill that was passed this year printed out in my car just in case I ran into any issue,Senate Bill 1744,and showed it to them he then took it to his car read it,came back gave me my gun back told me it is against state law to keep it in my vehicle and to take it home and keep it there. I would like to know the truth so I stopped by a police department in a different jurisdiction and talked with the captain,sgt,and a deputy for almost one hour about it I showed them the Bill and everything but they were unsure of whether I was allowed to or not they even made a few phone calls to people who said should know and whoever they called was unsure as well. They advised me to speak with an attorney to find out if I am allowed to or not. First of all I find it crazy that two different police departments don't know the law. Although they were all sort of friendly its still crazy to think that they don't and advised me to ask a lawyer instead of them when they are supposed to know the law and enforce it. My question is can someone please help me verify if I am allowed to keep my handgun in my vehicle? Thanks and sorry for the long read.

JamesCanby · Sep 17, 2014

tleonard55 said:
Okay guys I have a question. I am 20 years old,never convicted of any crime and not prohibited from owning a firearm. I own an AR-15, 9mm handgun, and an old .22 rifle. I live in Tennessee.
My question is regarding the law that was passed earlier this year in July regarding possession of a firearm in your vehicle. I know it has always been that you could keep a firearm in you vehicle with ammo in it if you had a concealed or carry permit,but the new law says you no longer have to have a permit to keep a gun in your vehicle as long as you are not prohibited from owning a firearm and as long as you own the vehicle. Its basically an extension of the castle doctrine saying you have the right to defend your home and your car is your property just as your home is. I have kept my handgun in my console loaded ever since this law was passed because you don't have to be 21 to own a handgun in TN,you only have to be 21 to get a carry permit,and I legally own the vehicle. I got pulled over the other day by a State Trooper for speeding and I informed him once he approached my car about my handgun,he asked me if I had a carry permit then asked me if I was 21,I replied no to both questions. He then asked me to get out of the vehicle so I did,he then got into my vehicle and took my handgun unloaded it and went back to his car,another officer arrived and they both told me you cannot own a handgun under 21 which I believe is not true at all. I had the Bill that was passed this year printed out in my car just in case I ran into any issue,Senate Bill 1744,and showed it to them he then took it to his car read it,came back gave me my gun back told me it is against state law to keep it in my vehicle and to take it home and keep it there. I would like to know the truth so I stopped by a police department in a different jurisdiction and talked with the captain,sgt,and a deputy for almost one hour about it I showed them the Bill and everything but they were unsure of whether I was allowed to or not they even made a few phone calls to people who said should know and whoever they called was unsure as well. They advised me to speak with an attorney to find out if I am allowed to or not. First of all I find it crazy that two different police departments don't know the law. Although they were all sort of friendly its still crazy to think that they don't and advised me to ask a lawyer instead of them when they are supposed to know the law and enforce it. My question is can someone please help me verify if I am allowed to keep my handgun in my vehicle? Thanks and sorry for the long read.

Welcome to OCDO. I have asked the moderator to move your request to the Tennessee sub-forum, where those most knowledgeable with Tennessee law can offer opinions.

tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

Okay thanks. I wasn't sure where to post this type of question at.

davidmcbeth · Sep 17, 2014

Arrrrrr...lol

tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

davidmcbeth said:
Arrrrrr...lol

Sorry about that lol its just hard to get all of the details in there so everyone can understand the situation.

Primus · Sep 17, 2014

tleonard55 said:
Sorry about that lol its just hard to get all of the details in there so everyone can understand the situation.

Possession in vehicle or storage in vehicle? Need the statute to see what it says.

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tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

Primus said:
Possession in vehicle or storage in vehicle? Need the statute to see what it says.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Keeping the gun in my console between my two seats. So I would say storage.

Primus · Sep 17, 2014

tleonard55 said:
Keeping the gun in my console between my two seats. So I would say storage.

You sure? Does it have to be unloaded/locked up to be storage? Again, the relevant statute would be needed to define possession as opposed to storage/transportation.

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tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

Primus said:
You sure? Does it have to be unloaded/locked up to be storage? Again, the relevant statute would be needed to define possession as opposed to storage/transportation.

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This was passed earlier this year. This is the law in question.

http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/billinfo/BillSummaryArchive.aspx?BillNumber=SB1774&ga=108

Primus · Sep 17, 2014

tleonard55 said:
This was passed earlier this year. This is the law in question.

http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/billinfo/BillSummaryArchive.aspx?BillNumber=SB1774&ga=108

Thanks for the link.

So heres the question then... Are you able to purchase a handgun in your state at your age, according to state law?

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tleonard55 · Sep 17, 2014

Primus said:
Thanks for the link.

So heres the question then... Are you able to purchase a handgun in your state at your age, according to state law?

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I cannot purchase form a FFL until I turn 21 but I can from a private party. There is no law stating that a person under 21 cannot own a handgun in Tennessee.

The law even states that a juvenile,juvenile being defined as someone under 18,can use and have a handgun on private property with a parents or legal guardian permission.

I am 20 so im not a juvenile and I am allowed to own the handgun,but cannot apply for a CC or OC permit until im 21,but this law replaces the need for a permit to keep a loaded firearm in your vehicle.

Wolf_shadow · Sep 17, 2014

tleonard55 said:
I cannot purchase form a FFL until I turn 21 but I can from a private party. There is no law stating that a person under 21 cannot own a handgun in Tennessee.

The law even states that a juvenile,juvenile being defined as someone under 18,can use and have a handgun on private property with a parents or legal guardian permission.

I am 20 so im not a juvenile and I am allowed to own the handgun,but cannot apply for a CC or OC permit until im 21,but this law replaces the need for a permit to keep a loaded firearm in your vehicle.

Never ask the police about the law!!! Ask a lawyer that is familiar with handgun law in your state.

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since9 · Sep 26, 2014

JamesCanby said:
Welcome to OCDO. I have asked the moderator to move your request to the Tennessee sub-forum, where those most knowledgeable with Tennessee law can offer opinions.

I second this. It's a good question, but as it is squarely concerned with Tennessee State Law, it should be in the Tennessee section.

tleonard55 said:
First of all I find it crazy that two different police departments don't know the law. Although they were all sort of friendly its still crazy to think that they don't and advised me to ask a lawyer instead of them when they are supposed to know the law and enforce it.

When I first began OCing, I made the mistake of calling the local police department to find the answer to a question. The answer was clearly out to lunch, so I called two other divisions and received two more answers. None of the three answers agreed with one another, so I called the District Attorney's office. They said they're not staffed to offer free legal advice and said I need to contact an attorney.

As it turned out, one of the law enforcement officers was right on the money, but I didn't find that out for some time, and not until I'd done an exhaustive (and exhausting) review of my State's firearms laws. The laws themselves aren't very many, or long. But I'd been way out of practice reading legalese, so it took some time.

Your gripe is legit, as law enforcement should know they laws they're enforcing. As military aviator, I had to know the military regs cold. They were about two feet thick, and included our T.O.s (technical orders) as well as our regulations and directives, which in later years were swept under the head of "AFIs" (Air Force Instructions). All together, they were meant to be a condensed and aircraft-specific version of the applicable FAA's Federal Aviation Regulations (close to 500 pages), portions of the Airman's Information Manual (another 500 pages). If we were flying overseas, we had to know both the ICAO and host nation regs, too, but fortunately there were briefing guides which detail the differences, so that was reasonably light reading. There's a reason pilot training in the Air Force was a year long and Nav School was eight months. Somewhere mixed in with all the rules and regs, we actually learned how to fly an aircraft, too!

Getting back to the law enforcement issue, most departments require their members to memorize the department's General Orders. They're a condensed set of instructions on what officers can and cannot do in any given situation. The general idea is that if they keep their cool, use sound reasoning, good judgement, and follow their General Orders to the letter, they're highly unlikely to run afoul of the law itself, or face any disciplinary action if a situation turns sour. The same was true of our aviation regulations.

Unfortunately, sometimes they're a little out of date, and there may also be translation errors between the legalese of the law and the cut and dried approach taken in the General Orders. Finally, in gray areas they tend to err on the side of caution, which for law enforcement translates to "control."

This is why, even though I may think I know the law verbatim on a particularly subject, I won't insist on it in the presence of a law enforcement officer who believes otherwise. He may not know the law, but he's following his General Orders. Even if he's dead wrong, his mission is to maintain control of the situation, so more power to him, and either I or an attorney will take up any outstanding issues with him, his department, or the legal system at a later date, when everyone is calmed down.

Best bet is to spend some time here on Open Carry.org (OCDO). Ask questions and ask for citations to the law. You might also review your state's version of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners' FAQs (they cite most things). You're bound to have at least one such website, probably more.

stealthyeliminator · Sep 26, 2014

tleonard55 said:
Okay guys I have a question. I am 20 years old,never convicted of any crime and not prohibited from owning a firearm. I own an AR-15, 9mm handgun, and an old .22 rifle. I live in Tennessee.
My question is regarding the law that was passed earlier this year in July regarding possession of a firearm in your vehicle. I know it has always been that you could keep a firearm in you vehicle with ammo in it if you had a concealed or carry permit,but the new law says you no longer have to have a permit to keep a gun in your vehicle as long as you are not prohibited from owning a firearm and as long as you own the vehicle. Its basically an extension of the castle doctrine saying you have the right to defend your home and your car is your property just as your home is. I have kept my handgun in my console loaded ever since this law was passed because you don't have to be 21 to own a handgun in TN,you only have to be 21 to get a carry permit,and I legally own the vehicle. I got pulled over the other day by a State Trooper for speeding and I informed him once he approached my car about my handgun,he asked me if I had a carry permit then asked me if I was 21,I replied no to both questions. He then asked me to get out of the vehicle so I did,he then got into my vehicle and took my handgun unloaded it and went back to his car,another officer arrived and they both told me you cannot own a handgun under 21 which I believe is not true at all. I had the Bill that was passed this year printed out in my car just in case I ran into any issue,Senate Bill 1744,and showed it to them he then took it to his car read it,came back gave me my gun back told me it is against state law to keep it in my vehicle and to take it home and keep it there. I would like to know the truth so I stopped by a police department in a different jurisdiction and talked with the captain,sgt,and a deputy for almost one hour about it I showed them the Bill and everything but they were unsure of whether I was allowed to or not they even made a few phone calls to people who said should know and whoever they called was unsure as well. They advised me to speak with an attorney to find out if I am allowed to or not. First of all I find it crazy that two different police departments don't know the law. Although they were all sort of friendly its still crazy to think that they don't and advised me to ask a lawyer instead of them when they are supposed to know the law and enforce it. My question is can someone please help me verify if I am allowed to keep my handgun in my vehicle? Thanks and sorry for the long read.

Welcome, sorry that I can't offer much help with Tennessee law, but I just wanted to say that you've learned a very important lesson that actually similarly lead me to joining this forum - never rely on a police department for legal advice. Yes, it's ridiculous that those charged with enforcing the law so often don't know what it is. And on occasion, you may even find an officer that knows what it is, but doesn't care, and is in willful contempt of the law (many departments in Arkansas, currently).

I've actually found that sometimes even when dealing with attorneys, it doesn't hurt to ask around. Attorneys are people too, and sometimes they have the same ignorance or contempt as the police.

If you plan on carrying regularly I would recommend getting some sort of legal protection plan for those that carry firearms for self-defense.

MSG Laigaie · Sep 27, 2014

since9 said:
It's a good question,
When I first began OCing, I made the mistake I didn't find that out for some time, and not until I'd done an exhaustive (and exhausting) review of my State's firearms laws.

Your gripe is legit, as law enforcement should know they laws they're enforcing. maintain control of the situation, so more power to him, and either I or an attorney will take up any outstanding issues with him, his department, or the legal system at a later date, when everyone is calmed down.

Best bet is to spend some time here on Open Carry.org (OCDO). Ask questions and ask for citations to the law. You might also review your state's version of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners' FAQs (they cite most things). You're bound to have at least one such website, probably more.

All good stuff. The part about knowing "fly regs" was important to me too (OH-58) and there is the rub. How many LEOs know the law? Is it important to all or just the few? Does it matter to them if they are right or wrong? Who knows? Some may really like the job and keep training and some just get hired and sit back. A roll of the dice as to which you will encounter. The best, primo, absolute way to Learn, is to read/study the laws yourself. Become a subject matter expert. Truth, will set you free.

golddigger14s · Sep 27, 2014

Another thing to check for your state is if you have a "duty to inform". For example in WA if you get pulled over for a traffic infraction you do not have to tell the LEO if you have a gun, unless he asks.

MKEgal · Oct 1, 2014

Paragraphs, son. Paragraphs. Please.

tleonard55 said:
My question is regarding the law that was passed earlier this year in July regarding possession of a firearm in your vehicle.

Yeah, this needs to be moved to the TN forum.

I got pulled over the other day by a State Trooper for speeding and I informed him once he approached my car about my handgun

Lesson #1: don't speed.
Lesson #2: don't talk to cops. Don't answer questions, don't volunteer information, don't tell them anything about what property you own or have in the car or on your person.
Lesson #3: don't ask cops to interpret laws. Often they don't know, or they'll give you their opinion, or they'll outright lie because they want you not to carry.

He then asked me to get out of the vehicle so I did,he then got into my vehicle and took my handgun unloaded it and went back to his car

Lesson #4: lock the car when you get out. Have the windows rolled up, put the keys in your pocket, do not consent to any seizures or searches.
Congrat's - you own a crime gun, because they probably ran the serial number. (Do an open records request to find out for sure, also make them tell you what their RAS of it being stolen or used in a crime was. They won't be able to, 'cause they didn't have any.)

gave me my gun back told me it is against state law to keep it in my vehicle and to take it home and keep it there

If you were committing a crime, they would have arrested you & kept your property.
It is not illegal to transport a firearm unloaded, encased, & out of reach anywhere in the USA. (Well, except possibly onto military, VA, or nuclear facility property.)

golddigger14s said:
Another thing to check for your state is if you have a "duty to inform". For example in WA if you get pulled over for a traffic infraction you do not have to tell the LEO if you have a gun, unless he asks.

This. Don't offer info.

since9 · Oct 1, 2014

MKEgal said:
Yeah, this needs to be moved to the TN forum.

I reported it. Let's see if anyone's listening...

notalawyer · Oct 2, 2014

since9 said:
I second this. It's a good question, but as it is squarely concerned with Tennessee State Law, it should be in the Tennessee section.

When I first began OCing, I made the mistake of calling the local police department to find the answer to a question. The answer was clearly out to lunch, so I called two other divisions and received two more answers. None of the three answers agreed with one another, so I called the District Attorney's office. They said they're not staffed to offer free legal advice and said I need to contact an attorney.

As it turned out, one of the law enforcement officers was right on the money, but I didn't find that out for some time, and not until I'd done an exhaustive (and exhausting) review of my State's firearms laws. The laws themselves aren't very many, or long. But I'd been way out of practice reading legalese, so it took some time.

Your gripe is legit, as law enforcement should know they laws they're enforcing. As military aviator, I had to know the military regs cold. They were about two feet thick, and included our T.O.s (technical orders) as well as our regulations and directives, which in later years were swept under the head of "AFIs" (Air Force Instructions). All together, they were meant to be a condensed and aircraft-specific version of the applicable FAA's Federal Aviation Regulations (close to 500 pages), portions of the Airman's Information Manual (another 500 pages). If we were flying overseas, we had to know both the ICAO and host nation regs, too, but fortunately there were briefing guides which detail the differences, so that was reasonably light reading. There's a reason pilot training in the Air Force was a year long and Nav School was eight months. Somewhere mixed in with all the rules and regs, we actually learned how to fly an aircraft, too!

Getting back to the law enforcement issue, most departments require their members to memorize the department's General Orders. They're a condensed set of instructions on what officers can and cannot do in any given situation. The general idea is that if they keep their cool, use sound reasoning, good judgement, and follow their General Orders to the letter, they're highly unlikely to run afoul of the law itself, or face any disciplinary action if a situation turns sour. The same was true of our aviation regulations.

Unfortunately, sometimes they're a little out of date, and there may also be translation errors between the legalese of the law and the cut and dried approach taken in the General Orders. Finally, in gray areas they tend to err on the side of caution, which for law enforcement translates to "control."

This is why, even though I may think I know the law verbatim on a particularly subject, I won't insist on it in the presence of a law enforcement officer who believes otherwise. He may not know the law, but he's following his General Orders. Even if he's dead wrong, his mission is to maintain control of the situation, so more power to him, and either I or an attorney will take up any outstanding issues with him, his department, or the legal system at a later date, when everyone is calmed down.

Best bet is to spend some time here on Open Carry.org (OCDO). Ask questions and ask for citations to the law. You might also review your state's version of Rocky Mountain Gun Owners' FAQs (they cite most things). You're bound to have at least one such website, probably more.

Rocky Mountain Gun Owners

Based on what I've read elsewhere, probably not a great suggestion.

Hey guys I am new here and have a question I need answered....

tleonard55

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