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Thread: How to assess danger of open-carriers?

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    How to assess danger of open-carriers?

    In response to the comments one often sees on other discussion fora like "I can't tell whether this person carrying a gun is a good guy or a bad guy, so I'm frightened", what do people here think are effective methods to suggest to people they could use to make such assessment ?

    Serious question as it would be nice to be able to tell people - do you check the following things?

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    That is simple, their behavior, and or actions. If a person is being aggressive either verbally or physically with a gun they are a danger. Carrying a gun is a right that has responsibilities. One cannot wear a gun and do anything they please to scare others, just wearing the gun does not count. But making accusations or screaming at another person certainly does.

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    First establish a correlation between observables and subsequent acts.

    I'm up to my azz in Bayesian Inference and its interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, in particular QBism, q.v.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Is every person with a male appendage a rapist? Absolutely not! The same applies to the one carrying a weapon, be it a gun openly or concealed, or a knife, or a club, or even one dressing in a uniform with handcuffs. Just because one has a tool does not make them dangerous! It is what they are doing with said tool!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    First establish a correlation between observables and subsequent acts.

    I'm up to my azz in Bayesian Inference and its interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, in particular QBism, q.v.
    Exactly on the money. What do people think are the observable a people should look for? Thanks WalkingWolf for mentioning a few.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    It's not a valid question. Our government brainwashes their educatees to squeal fear of any non-pig that has a gun.
    The only method to tell if it's a good guy or bad guy is the uniform and badge
    Last edited by twoskinsonemanns; 09-18-2014 at 06:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Exactly on the money. What do people think are the observable a people should look for? Thanks WalkingWolf for mentioning a few.
    My point is that intent is not observable.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Unless they have a uniform, if they are openly carrying, my threat assessment gets to start near zero, as opposed to someone walking around without any visible means of being armed.

    Do you drive down a two-lane road and freak-out about the intentions of the car coming head on toward you at a closure of 150 MPH with only a yellow stripe and two feet of air between you? Statistically, you are far more likely to need to fear that.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Unless they have a uniform, if they are openly carrying, my threat assessment gets to start near zero, as opposed to someone walking around without any visible means of being armed.

    Do you drive down a two-lane road and freak-out about the intentions of the car coming head on toward you at a closure of 150 MPH with only a yellow stripe and two feet of air between you? Statistically, you are far more likely to need to fear that.
    I do if the other car is driving erratically and running other cars off the road. Or if the driver is flashing the finger at others while screaming like raving lunatic. If a person acts like a lunatic, it is a pretty good guess they may be a lunatic. This goes for armed and unarmed, as a person that appears to be unarmed just may be armed.

    It is a matter of actions and behavior that determine danger. If a person armed acts normal, I assume they are normal.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-18-2014 at 07:31 PM.
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    How to reduce fears.

    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Unless they have a uniform, if they are openly carrying, my threat assessment gets to start near zero, as opposed to someone walking around without any visible means of being armed.
    I'm certainly in agreement on that one, but my question is what sort of questions can one ask the scared people to think about that will help them understand that an OC'er acting peacefully is not a threat. In other words, what questions are good in a Socratic approach to help reduce their fears

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    In exactly the same manner you'd assess the danger of anyone else. Just point to the nearest "other person" and ask the questioner to assess the danger of the person. The possession of a properly holstered handgun isn't a reason to consider a person more or less dangerous, rationally and generally speaking.
    Advocate freedom please

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    I'm certainly in agreement on that one, but my question is what sort of questions can one ask the scared people to think about that will help them understand that an OC'er acting peacefully is not a threat. In other words, what questions are good in a Socratic approach to help reduce their fears
    unless they (scared people) bring the subject up directly to you, ignore them and just go about your business. it is suppose to be their problem remember not yours.

    apparently in 12 posts you have changed the parameters of your initial query from SA perception to now discerning how your mind reading skills can be directed at those scared people so you can solve their non-articulated concerns about the good guy OC'g in front of them?

    naw'llll y'al have fun with this confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    unless they (scared people) bring the subject up directly to you, ignore them and just go about your business. it is suppose to be their problem remember not yours.
    ipse
    Yes, I am interested in what to ask scared people to help them when the subject comes up. Otherwise, I'm quite happy to ignore them if they haven't expressed any concern.
    Last edited by PeterNSteinmetz; 09-18-2014 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    Yes, I am interested in what to ask scared people to help them when the subject comes up. Otherwise, I'm quite happy to ignore them if they haven't expressed any concern.
    For the male--- "I fear you are a rapist as you have a penis?"
    For the female----"I fear you are a prostitute as you have a vagina?"
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    For starters, I'd suggest 'assessing the danger' the exact same way you'd do with someone carrying concealed. Although in actuality it's a far greater chance that someone meaning harm is going to conceal a weapon rather than wear one openly and honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    For the male--- "I fear you are a rapist as you have a penis?"
    For the female----"I fear you are a prostitute as you have a vagina?"
    One of those is consensual... Just saying...
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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    I'm certainly in agreement on that one, but my question is what sort of questions can one ask the scared people to think about that will help them understand that an OC'er acting peacefully is not a threat. In other words, what questions are good in a Socratic approach to help reduce their fears
    Probably the only thing that can make them less fearful (if they have the mental capacity to overcome anti-2A propaganda) is the repeated experience of noticing a person OCing that acts normally and doesn't hurt them. Though it's not a reason I OC I do hope it is a fortunate byproduct. I'm naturally a polite and helpful person so hopefully incidental associations are being made in people's perceptions.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterNSteinmetz View Post
    In response to the comments one often sees on other discussion fora like "I can't tell whether this person carrying a gun is a good guy or a bad guy, so I'm frightened", what do people here think are effective methods to suggest to people they could use to make such assessment ?

    Serious question as it would be nice to be able to tell people - do you check the following things?
    Are we talking about cops, citizens, or both?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    That is simple, their behavior, and or actions. If a person is being aggressive either verbally or physically with a gun they are a danger. Carrying a gun is a right that has responsibilities. One cannot wear a gun and do anything they please to scare others, just wearing the gun does not count. But making accusations or screaming at another person certainly does.

    Leave the anger at home!
    Right.

    Just act normal (read that as pleasant, civilized, friendly, etc.) and you'll most always be treated accordingly... whether you are armed or not.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Gah! All those electrons wasted trying to discuss reasonably and rationally a way to get someone operating on an emotional level to think reasonably and rationally!

    Folks operating on an emotional level who actually want to think, let alone operate, on a reasonable and rational level pay to spend "quality" time with a therapist who, as long as the copays and insurance reimbursements keep coming, have the patience to go over the same conversation which confirms to the person acting on an emotional level that 1) yes, they are acting on an emotional level, 2) yes, they "state" that they would like to operate on a reasonable and rational level, and 3) that for all the talk and dollars that have been exchanged not much has changed.

    I've spent 45 minutes standing next to a blue-haired old lady who professed to be so afraid of the mere sight of a gun that she broke out in a cold sweat and felt as if her heart were racing "a mile a minute". We talked about the art fair we were both at, the wonderful weather, the way youngsters these days dress and act in public, and her grandchildren. And about her being afraid of guns - even the ones cops had. All with me OCing and moving around so that she was put in positions to observe that I did in fact have a honking big old gun strapped to my hip. At the end of our conversation I brought up the fact that we had been talking for 45 minutes and that I had been wearing a gun all that time. Her response? "But you were so nice and polite* from the very beginning that the thought of your gun never entered my mind."

    (* - for those that do not know me, "nice and polite" are terms usually not associated with me. But I can play the part when it is advantageous. )

    It can be done on a 1-on-1 situation, but expecting carryover from that to the rest of life is like believing in the Tooth Fairy - a nice dream but not something you expect folks much past kindergarten to hold as unquestionably true.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    It's not a valid question. Our government brainwashes their educatees to squeal fear of any non-pig that has a gun.
    The only method to tell if it's a good guy or bad guy is the uniform and badge
    If the open carrier is wearing a uniform and badge my perceived threat level is on high until I can move away from the possible danger.

    If the open carrier is not wearing a uniform or badge my threat level of this person is very low.

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    The person nonchalantly open carrying has nothing to hide.

    The criminal, or one is intent on causing harm, most likely will not open carry. Their actions require concealment.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGadgets View Post
    The person nonchalantly open carrying has nothing to hide.

    The criminal, or one is intent on causing harm, most likely will not open carry. Their actions require concealment.
    Unfortunately there is that very small percentage that act like buffoons while carrying. Buffoons are in every segment of society, we are not immune.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Unfortunately there is that very small percentage that act like buffoons while carrying. Buffoons are in every segment of society, we are not immune.
    Very true.

    Yet the buffoonary of the civilian type is typically, and regularly held to account, even when the buffoonary is legal. The buffoonary of the LE type is rarely held to account and this buffoonary is usually illegal. Both are OC.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterGadgets View Post
    The person nonchalantly open carrying has nothing to hide.

    The criminal, or one is intent on causing harm, most likely will not open carry. Their actions require concealment.
    I agree this is certainly correct. I'm just trying to think of socratic method type questions to ask the fearful people, which will not come across as threatening them and that will get them to consider this point.

    I also suspect that education at an early age in some familiarity with guns is the best long run solution, but what about for those that have already had the poor early education and lack of experience that breeds unreasonable fears?

    A number of relatives and friends fall into this group and I'm fairly certain this subject will come up when I next visit home

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