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Thread: Mammoth Cave - Beware

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    Mammoth Cave - Beware

    Hi all..

    I recently visited Mammoth Cave. After doing some research, I found the 2010 NPS law that states open carry is allowed in the park unless prohibited. Now, I've read countless of threads around here and other states that imply the only prohibited places are the Visitor's Center and Cave Tours. Well, turns out that's not quite accurate..

    As I was headed down the walkway to the cave, all was going well. Then, as I approached the stairs that lead into the actual entrance, a small white plaque caught my eye. To my dismay, it was a "Firearms Prohibited" sign.

    In other words..

    Open carry is PROHIBITED in Mammoth Cave, whether on a tour or not, starting at the stairway leading down.

    Just thought I'd let you folks know.. As always, individuals carrying should be looking out for such signs and in general have good situational awareness. But doesn't hurt to know in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by 113 View Post
    Hi all..

    I recently visited Mammoth Cave. After doing some research, I found the 2010 NPS law that states open carry is allowed in the park unless prohibited. Now, I've read countless of threads around here and other states that imply the only prohibited places are the Visitor's Center and Cave Tours. Well, turns out that's not quite accurate..

    As I was headed down the walkway to the cave, all was going well. Then, as I approached the stairs that lead into the actual entrance, a small white plaque caught my eye. To my dismay, it was a "Firearms Prohibited" sign.

    In other words..

    Open carry is PROHIBITED in Mammoth Cave, whether on a tour or not, starting at the stairway leading down.

    Just thought I'd let you folks know.. As always, individuals carrying should be looking out for such signs and in general have good situational awareness. But doesn't hurt to know in advance
    Mammouth Cave is NPS land and yes a sign is required to be posted resticting guns in facilities (not just OC) where federal employees normally work.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

    Even with that, I don't see how they can restrict guns on the stairway unless it is within the entrance. In any event, why would anyone want to carry on the steps (if legal) knowing that guns were not allowed inside?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-21-2014 at 03:34 PM.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Mammouth Cave is NPS land and yes a sign is required to be posted resticting guns in facilities (not just OC) where federal employees normally work.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

    Even with that, I don't see how they can restrict guns on the stairway unless it is within the entrance. In any event, why would anyone want to carry on the steps (if legal) knowing that guns were not allowed inside?
    Well, that's just it.. Guns aren't allowed in the cave. I haven't heard a single mention of that on any forum, this one included. This isn't a building or any 'place of work', its just a walkway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 113 View Post
    Well, that's just it.. Guns aren't allowed in the cave. I haven't heard a single mention of that on any forum, this one included. This isn't a building or any 'place of work', its just a walkway.
    The word "building" is not used. The proper term is "facilitiy."

    Similar condition exists at Wolftrap in northern Virginia.
    http://www.wolftrap.org/Find_Perform...nd_Events.aspx

    Wolftrap is outdoors, but one must pass through a ticket taking area. According to them that is a facility where federal employees are working.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The word "building" is not used. The proper term is "facilitiy."

    Similar condition exists at Wolftrap in northern Virginia.
    http://www.wolftrap.org/Find_Perform...nd_Events.aspx

    Wolftrap is outdoors, but one must pass through a ticket taking area. According to them that is a facility where federal employees are working.
    Yes, you're right. Facility it the correct term.

    Regardless of the reason behind the sign, it's there. I researched whether or not you can carry INSIDE the actual cave, and it looked like everyone was implying 'yes' before my trip. (Legal to Carry at Mammoth?) Turns out you can't. All I was trying to do is plan out my day. Now, it's quite a bit of a walk from the parking area to the actual cave entrance. Figured I'd possibly save some people the time it takes to walk back and forth to secure your firearm in your car after seeing the sign.

    EDIT: Such as post 3 in the linked thread..
    Last edited by 113; 09-21-2014 at 04:13 PM.

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    It may truly be legal to carry within the cave..... They just have is set up that you CAN'T legally get your gun there to carry!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    It may truly be legal to carry within the cave..... They just have is set up that you CAN'T legally get your gun there to carry!
    ????? If you cannot legally get the gun in, it is illegal to carry inside. Why muck up the waters? In that type of situation I wouldn't think everything has to be spelled out.

    *** I have no knowledge of law/regulation at Mammoth Caves so please do not read my comment as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    ????? If you cannot legally get the gun in, it is illegal to carry inside. Why muck up the waters? In that type of situation I wouldn't think everything has to be spelled out.

    *** I have no knowledge of law/regulation at Mammoth Caves so please do not read my comment as such.
    There is at least ONE National Monument cave where it is fully legal to carry IN the cave, unfortunately, the only way INTO the cave is thru the NATIONAL PARK Facitility which is Properly posted so carry within the Facility is prohibited!

    Now, if one were to receive the handgun while inside the cave and not have have possession of the handgun while within the National Park Facility they would be fully within the bounds of current law.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    This has been discussed on this forum before. I believe the feds interpret the caves as being federal facilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    There is at least ONE National Monument cave where it is fully legal to carry IN the cave, unfortunately, the only way INTO the cave is thru the NATIONAL PARK Facitility which is Properly posted so carry within the Facility is prohibited!

    Now, if one were to receive the handgun while inside the cave and not have have possession of the handgun while within the National Park Facility they would be fully within the bounds of current law.
    My point is that if you cannot legally get the gun into the cave we might as well consider the cave illegal territory. I guess we can continue to discuss magic guns that pop up out of nowhere. Even if that magic gun showed up, it would have to magically disappear or just leave it in the cave before exiting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The word "building" is not used. The proper term is "facilitiy."

    Similar condition exists at Wolftrap in northern Virginia.
    http://www.wolftrap.org/Find_Perform...nd_Events.aspx

    Wolftrap is outdoors, but one must pass through a ticket taking area. According to them that is a facility where federal employees are working.
    Actually...if you read just a little further down...

    The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
    Last edited by notalawyer; 09-25-2014 at 09:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy1094 View Post
    My point is that if you cannot legally get the gun into the cave we might as well consider the cave illegal territory. I guess we can continue to discuss magic guns that pop up out of nowhere. Even if that magic gun showed up, it would have to magically disappear or just leave it in the cave before exiting.
    It is POSSIBLE that some "Sam Sneed" unlawfully carried my firearm unbeknownst to me into the cave. I recognized the firearm as my property while in said cave and made possession of said firearm within the cave having broken no laws.

    Tain't Likely, but it is POSSIBLE.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    It is POSSIBLE that some "Sam Sneed" unlawfully carried my firearm unbeknownst to me into the cave. I recognized the firearm as my property while in said cave and made possession of said firearm within the cave having broken no laws.

    Tain't Likely, but it is POSSIBLE.
    So, now how do you lawfully get said firearm out of the cave? You would be forced to leave it on a stalagmite where, in a thousand years (??), it will become a permanent display that people will laugh at, since they will have lasers/phasers by then. That would be your only lawful option. Of course, I would be compelled to give the "Sam Sneed" a swift kick in the jewels for sneaking my firearm into the cave and putting me that situation.

    I guess another option would be to go rent an auger and drill your way into the cave. A two man, hand operated unit should do just fine. Make sure you have plenty of fuel on hand, a probably an extra auger. I HATE having to run back out to the store when I'm in the middle of a project.
    Last edited by willy1094; 09-26-2014 at 07:44 AM.

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    is a flare gun a firearm? reason i ask is that if it is not then here is a way to get firearm in and out legally. now if you do this i am not responsible for your actions. now this will only work if the flare gun is not a firearm, take the flare gun in one pocket and if you don't have one order a 410/45 barrel insert. keep it in the other pocket, once inside you can put it together and presto a gun. then before you leave take it apart again and no firearm. may be someone with more knowledge can know if this is legal or not. it was just an idea i had, and some of my idea's aren't good but some are. now this won't work for a regular firearm as even taken apart its still a firearm.
    Last edited by boomer92266; 09-26-2014 at 06:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer92266 View Post
    is a flare gun a firearm? reason i ask is that if it is not then here is a way to get firearm in and out legally. now if you do this i am not responsible for your actions. now this will only work if the flare gun is not a firearm, take the flare gun in one pocket and if you don't have one order a 410/45 barrel insert. keep it in the other pocket, once inside you can put it together and presto a gun. then before you leave take it apart again and no firearm. may be someone with more knowledge can know if this is legal or not. it was just an idea i had, and some of my idea's aren't good but some are. now this won't work for a regular firearm as even taken apart its still a firearm.
    See Kentucky statute definition for deadly weapon":
    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19642
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Mammouth Cave is NPS land and yes a sign is required to be posted resticting guns in facilities (not just OC) where federal employees normally work.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

    ?
    <snip> .... so they should put signs up anywhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    See Kentucky statute definition for deadly weapon":
    http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=19642
    yes if they post a sign saying deadly weapons then the flare gun is a no no, however if they post as some places do that carrying firearms is prohibited, i wonder if the flare gun would count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by boomer92266 View Post
    yes if they post a sign saying deadly weapons then the flare gun is a no no, however if they post as some places do that carrying firearms is prohibited, i wonder if the flare gun would count?
    If not volunteering to be a test case, then it would appear to be effective.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    "Sam Sneed"? What does any of this have to do with golf?
    I don't do Golf and was trying to come up with a fictitious name of a non-person..... my apologies to Mr. Sam Sneed!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    So you just picked "Sam Sneed" out of thin air? I am not sure that I buy that, but it has nothing to do with OC, so OK.
    Well, since ground level at my location is right about 4500 feet above average sea level---- it would be "thin air"! And seriously, I don't follow golf at all--- never been golfing in my life not counting <10 Mini Golf courses.

    I guess I could change it to "Richard S*****" but it just seems to not be appropriate for this "family" forum.

    --Deleted by Moderator--[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-28-2014 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Don't need to go there
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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