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Thread: .460 Rowland

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    .460 Rowland

    Next in my series of threads meant to get more talk going about some odd-ball white-hot-loaded high-pressure calibers in semi-auto is the .460 Rowland. My goal would be to convert a stainless Sig 1911 (A Scorpion would be sweet though) with a Clark Custom Guns .460 Rowland conversion. It includes the barrel, a compensator/bushing, stronger recoil spring and 2 piece guide rod/plug, and a stronger firing pin spring. I may have found my holy grail...

    "The .460 Rowland is a proprietary cartridge which attains true .44 Magnum level velocities when fired from a number of popular semi-automatic pistols, revolvers, and rifles. The cartridge was designed and developed by Mr. Johnny Ray Rowland, host of "The Shooting Show." After first developing the new cartridge, Mr. Rowland worked with Starline Brass to finalize commercial production of the brass and later with Clark Custom Guns to develop the first commercially available .460 Rowland Conversions for specific versions of the M1911."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.460_Rowland

    I'll let the man himself, Johnny Ray Rowland do the rest of the talking. All I've got to say is, "Holy !@#$%ng hell I want one!" I highly suggest you sit down while watching this video --Mod edited verbiage--

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdxvoH1LLXc

    You could kill a Yeti with this thing, although I advise against it as I believe they are a protected species.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 09-24-2014 at 04:53 AM. Reason: Unacceptable wording
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Sounds impressive, but I think I'll stick with my .475 Wildley (and a Coonan .357 Magnum as a backup).

    Besides, they're Collector's Items nowadays. :-)

    -- Paul Kersey
    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Sounds impressive, but I think I'll stick with my .475 Wildley (and a Coonan .357 Magnum as a backup).

    Besides, they're Collector's Items nowadays. :-)

    -- Paul Kersey
    Thank you for mentioning .475 Wildey! Those ballistics are scary! 1,900+fps/1,900+ft.lbs with a 230gr bullet out of a handgun. Haha...I think the .460 Rowland might be my threshold for now... That .475 Wildey would do incredibly brutal damage to any size animal in North America! It would be stupid for me to even ask about the recoil...

    I can't stop watching that JRR video... that 16 inch barrel with the adjustable stock is just...mmmmmm
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Next in my series of threads meant to get more talk going about some odd-ball white-hot-loaded high-pressure calibers in semi-auto is the .460 Rowland.
    --snipped--
    Ask Peter Nap about it at the Pig Roast - think he has one.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    .... It would be stupid for me to even ask about the recoil...

    ....
    Recoil? Once you put hydraulic dampers on you can begin to talk about recoil. Otherwise, it's just "a mite stout".

    stay safe.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    The .460 has been on my list for a while. My problem is that all of my potential and willing hosts at the moment have aluminum or polymer frames, and it is recommended to do it to a steel-framed gun only. I'm shooting .45 Supers through a few things, though.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-24-2014 at 10:35 AM.
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    So I wanted a gun that did .44mag performance. Turns out I really like revolvers. Son-of-a-gun revolvers come in .44mag.

    Btw, I've been doing my own handloading and I have a nice, easy shooting .44mag load that throws a 245grn swc at 1200fps. That's just under 800f/lbs.

    In your quest to find your big boom semi auto, I wish you the best. Should you be stymied, just remember there's a lot of really nice big bore revolvers out there.
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    Regular Member mobiushky's Avatar
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    I carry a .45 because they don't make a .46... oh. wait. Never mind.

    Just a little light hearted moment.

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    I also have been interested in this conversion. I contacted them and they advise against converting a commander size 1911. I think it has something to do with ejection, but, am not sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
    I carry a .45 because they don't make a .46... oh. wait. Never mind.

    Just a little light hearted moment.
    Hah! This one is juuuuust a bit stronger than a .45 ACP

    It also looks like I finally found a buyer for my old Suburban, so as long as I keep the ol' lady happy I will have a generous budget for this! It's looking like I'll go Stainless Sig 1911 since it makes sense to use the strongest frame and slide possible. I'd love it to be Ceracote but I'm pretty sure all those pistols are alloy metals, and likely wouldn't last the lifetime of the pistol.

    I love the Springfield 1911-A1 and I also love the S&W 4506. If anyone can think of any reason why Sig Stainless isn't the best choice, let me know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Well, I finally searched hard enough and found Johnny Rowland's personal opinion on the best gun to convert, and he says stainless is NOT the best gun to use. This is good news, as I never wanted a stainless gun.

    http://460rowland.com/which-conversi...est-for-1911s/

    That being said, I've narrowed my choices to a blued Springfield 1911-A1 or if the money is right, a Sig 1911 Scorpion. The hunt begins!
    Last edited by The Truth; 09-26-2014 at 01:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Regular Member J_dazzle23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Well, I finally searched hard enough and found Johnny Rowland's personal opinion on the best gun to convert, and he says stainless is NOT the best gun to use. This is good news, as I never wanted a stainless gun.

    http://460rowland.com/which-conversi...est-for-1911s/

    That being said, I've narrowed my choices to a blued Springfield 1911-A1 or if the money is right, a Sig 1911 Scorpion. The hunt begins!
    I'm suprised stainless wasn't the way to go! But I'm no expert. This should be a beast of a gun. Looking forward to seeing this conversion

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    Quote Originally Posted by J_dazzle23 View Post
    I'm suprised stainless wasn't the way to go! But I'm no expert. This should be a beast of a gun. Looking forward to seeing this conversion
    I was surprised about stainless not being the best option either, but for the reasons Johnny specified, a simple coating would make it the best choice in my opinion. I just so happens that the Sig Scorpion is Cerakoted stanless steel both on the frame and the slide, combining the best of both worlds! The Scorpion also happens to be my first choice all along anyway *hint*
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Hmmm... Guess that means I will have to buy a new non-stainless one. Darn!
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    I recall when the 10mm was first made they essentially used converted 1911s (like the Delta Elite) but over time they failed because they weren't engineered for that energy level. I'd think the same would hold true today, most guns aren't engineered for 50% or 100% more energy from the round.

    The Bren 10 was the first one built from the frame up to the energy levels, but financially its failed twice and is in limbo on round 3 with Vitor. The Glock 20 was also designed to 10mm energy levels and is a succesful design in the market. However, I would wager that over time using a 44 magnum level energy round would wear it out in similar fashion as its not economical to over engineer the gun (ie look at the HK Mark 23) as it pushes the cost way up.

    Would be great to have a regular sized autoloader firing a round with that energy (ie full sized combat auto versus the over sized autos like the Mark 23 or Desert Eagle). I've got a Desert Eagle .50 and a .44 magnum barrel for it, but its an enormous gun for everyday carry getting in and out of regular vehicles etc. The capacity is also what I'd call low for a defensive firearm at 7-8 rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxxon View Post
    I recall when the 10mm was first made they essentially used converted 1911s (like the Delta Elite) but over time they failed because they weren't engineered for that energy level. I'd think the same would hold true today, most guns aren't engineered for 50% or 100% more energy from the round.
    I'm not sure of the total accuracy of your statements, however I do not disagree about the 1911, especially the Delta Elite 10mm. I considered going Delta Elite 10mm for a short time but decided not to after finding consistent claims of the same nature as yours.

    The Bren 10 was the first one built from the frame up to the energy levels, but financially its failed twice and is in limbo on round 3 with Vitor. The Glock 20 was also designed to 10mm energy levels and is a succesful design in the market. However, I would wager that over time using a 44 magnum level energy round would wear it out in similar fashion as its not economical to over engineer the gun (ie look at the HK Mark 23) as it pushes the cost way up.
    Supposedly VLTOR is making a new Bren-Ten, but it's all been talk so far. http://www.vltor.com/2014/01/09/bren-ten-update-2014-2/

    The Glock 10mm's are very reliable but apparently don't give full chamber support which makes the guns more reliable but not as strong, if that makes sense.

    The way I am justifying going .460 Rowland is that in the gun's lifetime it will rarely be shot. It's as very specialized tool. As for the unreliablity with the 1911 platform, I also agree with you to an extent. The upgraded recoil spring and compensator really seem to take care of unreliability issues from all the research I've gone through. I also think that Sig Sauer's 1911 is stronger than other variants because of the extra bulk on the slide and the heat dissipating properties of Cerakote - heat being the major cause of most 1911 failures from what I've seen. Also if it's good enough for Johnny Rowland it's good enough for me

    Would be great to have a regular sized autoloader firing a round with that energy (ie full sized combat auto versus the over sized autos like the Mark 23 or Desert Eagle). I've got a Desert Eagle .50 and a .44 magnum barrel for it, but its an enormous gun for everyday carry getting in and out of regular vehicles etc. The capacity is also what I'd call low for a defensive firearm at 7-8 rounds.
    The DE is a beast. I personally would never own one for reasons which are confirmed by your finding it impractical. As for being a defensive pistol, in my application the .460 Rowland would split time between being an offensive weapon and a defensive one, and with the Sig Scorpion I'm also getting 8+1 capacity stock, or 10+ 1 with an extended mag that would also offset the extra length caused by the compensator. Also, .460 Rowland is a 1,000ft lb energy caliber. It would definitely do more damage in less shots IMO.
    Last edited by The Truth; 09-30-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    I mean really, how can you resist this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    I just did a fairly extensive search for .460 Rowland failures, and the best I could find was a Glock 30 with a reamed .45 ACP barrel, no compensator, and supposedly loaded with 13 grains of Unique and a 250 grain hardcast bullet. What an IDIOT. No barrel manufacturer or gunsmith that I know of would EVER ream a barrel to .460R, especially for a Glock. Surprisingly, I can't seem to find any serious 1911 .460R failures, and a guy on this same thread claims he regularly shoots 100-200 rounds through his Sig Scorpion .460R at the range.

    http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...ad-kaboom.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    I just ordered my .460 Rowland conversion barrel kit from Clark Custom Guns www.clarkcustomguns.com

    Now to find a decently priced Scorpion
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Ordered some 230gr Bonded JHP and some 255gr Hard Cast Flat Nose from www.underwoodammo.com today

    They're out of stock in the 185gr BJHP flavor. As soon as its back in stock I'll be picking those up too!

    ...licking my chops and although no one here cares, I'll keep updating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I mean really, how can you resist this?
    It looks green and I don't look good in green.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It looks green and I don't look good in green.
    It's "flat dark earth," hehe. That way I can hide from bears!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Looks like a nice pistol.

    Bullet weight/type
    Velocity
    Energy
    185 gr (12.0 g) JHP 1,425 ft/s (434 m/s) 834 ft•lbf (1,131 J)
    230 gr (15 g) JHP 1,250 ft/s (380 m/s) 798 ft•lbf (1,082 J)
    230 gr (15 g) FMJ 1,250 ft/s (380 m/s) 798 ft•lbf (1,082 J)
    255 gr (16.5 g) Bonded Core HP 1,100 ft/s (340 m/s) 685 ft•lbf (929 J)
    Test barrel length: 5.5 in
    Source: CORBON[1][2]

    The .460 Rowland is a proprietary cartridge intended to attain .44 Remington Magnum level performance with a M1911-pattern semi-automatic

    Interesting Ballistics but a couple hundred fps below 44 mag velocity's in each bullet weight doesn't bring to 44 mag level of performance .

    In my 44 red hawks surpassing the above velocities isn't that hard to do.

    After shooting and seeing some bears shot with a 315 gr WFN hard cast at around 1280fps and getting many feet of penetration . One 250lb bear shot in the chest exited right ham for over 4 feet of penetration.

    Just a couple weeks ago I saw a 350lb blk bear killed with a frontal shot with the 315gr load one witness stated that bear just jelloed at the shot.

    I shoot the same bullet out of my light Taurus tracker at 1100 fps the 1280 load is a bit much for that light of pistol.

    A 255gr cast at 1100 is just a nice practice load out of my 44s.

    A good 44 mag revolver is hard to beat.
    Last edited by Firearms Iinstuctor; 10-01-2014 at 07:41 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    ...A good 44 mag revolver is hard to beat.
    Easy with a Ruger .45 Colt revolver, though

    My new favorite this last year has been my S&W 625 loaded with .45 Super, though. Instant change between .45 ACP or .45 Super, the latter can easily be loaded in Super or AutoRim brass. Often, you just don't need to be too magnumish.
    Last edited by MAC702; 10-01-2014 at 07:54 PM.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Looks like a nice pistol.

    Bullet weight/type
    Velocity
    Energy
    185 gr (12.0 g) JHP 1,425 ft/s (434 m/s) 834 ft•lbf (1,131 J)
    230 gr (15 g) JHP 1,250 ft/s (380 m/s) 798 ft•lbf (1,082 J)
    230 gr (15 g) FMJ 1,250 ft/s (380 m/s) 798 ft•lbf (1,082 J)
    255 gr (16.5 g) Bonded Core HP 1,100 ft/s (340 m/s) 685 ft•lbf (929 J)
    Test barrel length: 5.5 in
    Source: CORBON[1][2]
    Based on my research, CORBON's numbers are a bit on the tame side as far as factory loads go. The numbers from the Underwood Ammo rounds I have ordered are:

    230gr JHP 1,373 fps/963 ft.lbs energy (Underwood claims 1,400 fps.)
    185gr BJHP 1,582 fps/1,028 ft.lbs. energy (Underwood claims 1,575 fps.)
    255gr HCFN (Underwood claims 1,300 fps.)*

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhGM0hhsGEg

    That's more like the 44 Magnum.

    *I don't have the ballistics for the 255gr hard cast flat nosers on hand, but I have them saved. I'll edit. The penetration is sick though.



    I'll also be able to shoot .45 Super and .45 ACP
    Last edited by The Truth; 10-02-2014 at 01:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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