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Thread: Does size really matter?

  1. #1
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    Does size really matter?

    I know the title may seem strange but in all seriousness does it? When OC'n does size really matter? Does the OC of say a Ruger Lc9 and a much larger Beretta MP9/45 (or equivalent) make more or less sense? Can one just as safely OC a smaller handgun over the larger type? Secondarily, how many carry spare magazines? If so how many? Thanks for you input and advice.



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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    You should carry what YOU can shoot well and will carry the most. As to size and what thugs think...who cares? If they want to be stupid and find out how deadly any well placed pistol shot can be at close range by attacking you, feel free to oblige them.

    ETA-

    As to spare mags - I'm a rare breed of OCer. I ditched the mags and replaced them with back up guns. Why? Much easier/fast for me to go to another pistol then fumble for mags under stress, then reload. In a gun fight time is NOT your friend. Shave off every split second of time you can when possible.

    If you do carry a spare mag(s) in a pouch, practice (safely) drawing them & loading them until it be comes as fluid as possible.

    I am not answering your question directly because - what works for me, may not work for you & like wise. Experiment (safely) and find a pal that can go over (faux) stress /force on force drills with you such as pistol retention, and playing the moving/shooting back bad guy while you attempt to reload (USE Snap caps or AIR SOFT) etc. It may sound goofy, but air-soft can really help you develop real world skills, while maintaining a safe environment. If you go the AIR SOFT route wear protection - they can: knock out teeth, eyes etc..
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 09-25-2014 at 10:08 PM. Reason: ETA
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  3. #3
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    good response Free, even a 22 pistol is better at thwarting a bad guy than no firearm available.

    btw, welcome to the forum...you will soon discern multiple opinions to your query...

    ipse
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Short answer, no, size does not matter in regards to frame size.

    Alternatively, you should shoot the largest caliber that you can comfortably and accurately shoot for self defense in my opinion. Ballistics come into play at some point, but at what point is up to you and your application. Frame size is purely ergonomics and comfort as far as OC goes. Most people who carry a "larger" pistol while OCing usually only say it that way because they carry a smaller pistol for CC, so their OC weapon is "bigger" by default.

    I OC a Sig P229 .40 S&W with 2 spare mags. I feel it's the perfect size for me, and the .40 is a very good performer ballistically and is one of few "high pressure" self defense rounds. I have large hands so the large grip and double stack mag are just what I need. It's basically worthless as far as accuracy past about 150 feet though, so it's definitely my "in town" carry. It is very practical for such an application, however. If you want a heavy slow bullet, go .45. If you want a smaller faster bullet go 9mm. If you want the best "in town" self defense round ever invented (IMO) go 10mm. These are all semi-auto suggestions. Revolvers are a different story.

    For my "in the woods" carry, I'm in the process of "building" a stainless Sig 1911 converted to .460 Rowland, which is essentially a hand cannon. A .44 mag-type power plant in a semi-auto. It's impractical in the city, but I can kill any wild animal in North America with it, and if necessary, it's known to be accurate at 175+ yards and packs enough punch to seriously injure someone even wearing light body armor. Anything further than 175yds or if I have time to switch weapons on the fly, I utilize my rifle.
    Last edited by The Truth; 09-26-2014 at 12:10 AM. Reason: certain details
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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Question

    @ Key -

    You need to give us info if you really want the details - hand size, sensitivity to recoil/muzzle flash, budget, will this also be used for home defense - aka will someone other than you have to shoot it in a SHTF situation?
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  6. #6
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Its not the size of the gun its the motion of the recoil.

    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    There is nothing wrong with carrying a smaller sized weapon, but you should be open to options as well. One of the reasons I started open carrying, besides not having a CHP in North Carolina, was not having to compromise size, caliber, or capacity.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Let's get down to brass tacks. The heresy of the day, which I am about to commit, is that for all intents and purposes the caliber war is meaningless. The difference between ballistic gel performance of the various calibers is pretty darned small.

    Now I'm going to commit the additional heresy of saying that carrying reloads is mostly for show. (Unless it's the zombie apocalypse, in which case there is never going to be enough reloads.) What are you carrying for in the first place? Self defense against 1 (or possibly 2) bad guy(s), MS-13 doing a home invasion of your farmstead 50 miles from town, or some other hypothetical scenario?

    All that having been said, my personal preference is to not say anything about what or how much you carry until your Bat Belt makes the local cops envious.

    Full disclosure: I carry two extra moon clips - mostly to keep me from leaning over on my gun side.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Let's get down to brass tacks. The heresy of the day, which I am about to commit, is that for all intents and purposes the caliber war is meaningless. The difference between ballistic gel performance of the various calibers is pretty darned small.

    Now I'm going to commit the additional heresy of saying that carrying reloads is mostly for show. (Unless it's the zombie apocalypse, in which case there is never going to be enough reloads.) What are you carrying for in the first place? Self defense against 1 (or possibly 2) bad guy(s), MS-13 doing a home invasion of your farmstead 50 miles from town, or some other hypothetical scenario?

    All that having been said, my personal preference is to not say anything about what or how much you carry until your Bat Belt makes the local cops envious.

    Full disclosure: I carry two extra moon clips - mostly to keep me from leaning over on my gun side.

    stay safe.
    In the old days a gun was used to balance the weight of a cell phone. Now they are so small gotta carry lots of ammo to balance for the gun.

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  10. #10
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    Disappointed with this thread .... misleading title... sign attched has nothing to do with the title either ...

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    Regular Member HPmatt's Avatar
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    sign from my gun club



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    For the last two weeks I have been bear hunting and carrying my 7.5 inch red hawk with the proper rig it is not bad at all.

    But I will not mind going back to my Glock 23 it is just a bit lighter and compact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by turn_key21 View Post
    When OC'n does size really matter?
    Depends why you are open carrying. If you are open carrying for awareness, it might help to wear something big. If you are open carrying for personal protection, it might help to wear something you are good at shooting. If you are open carrying solely for exercising your right, carry whatever. I say as long as you are armed and carrying in a safe manner, you are doing it right.


    Quote Originally Posted by turn_key21 View Post
    Secondarily, how many carry spare magazines? If so how many?
    I do- As few as 0, as many as 2. Just like with choosing a gun for self-defense, find a balance between comfort/practicality and having the means to protect yourself.
    Last edited by kubel; 09-29-2014 at 01:08 AM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    The OP appears to another drive-by poster here on OCDO? Seems to happen a lot lately?
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    Regular Member Rusty Young Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Its not the size of the gun its the motion of the recoil.

    True, one should carry the mot powerful cartridge they can handle, be it in terms of recoil or the weight itself. A carried $100 Derringer chambered in. 22 LR is much better than a $1300 tacticool pistol left at home because it was too heavy ().

    Hopefully our OP returns and was not merely a drive-by poster, though I will admit it has been happening with regularity.

    @HPmatt: Love that sign.
    Last edited by Rusty Young Man; 09-29-2014 at 03:21 AM.
    I carry to defend my loved ones; Desensitizing and educating are secondary & tertiary reasons. Anything else is unintended.

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    Skidmark Note this is not an attack on your post, it is to clear up common misconceptions I see on every gun and carry site. Your post just brought it to mind.


    Your supposition" if that is yours", that caliber is meaningless defies common sense and logic. For those who have seen shootings first hand and been engaged in combat and has poured over thousands of N.I.J shooting reports I promise you caliber can in FACT be the difference between life and death. Also for someone like myself who has a very visible gunshot wound just north of where the heart is and am still here typing to you, I can also say caliber can make a difference. In the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reports we see that caliber is the crucial difference between life and death with all other things equal. This is why I carry a 45acp loaded with Hornady Critical duty and used to use Corbon. I also carry a .357 with Hornady Critical defense loads in my S&W Model 19 and if I think danger is far far away I might venture around the property with a S&W Model 586 with again very capable loads and a S&W Model 36 as a backup. get the picture yet?

    I have seen people bleed out over a very long time fully ambulatory and could have been saved if they had the presence of mind to seek help. Fact is most all shootings happen very fast literally seconds in time and at very close ranges. Why is this critical? Someone at 6 or 10 feet almost can't miss you and if I have to face this reality that I might take a bullet from a lunatic spray them at me in a panicked attempt to kill me I want a round capable of a one shot STOP! The .45 acp as seen in NIJ reports does this over 70% of the time and the .357 is also in this range. I do not subscribe to the ballistic gelatin as the end all beat all case closed last word because I have seen in real life the so called rounds of instant devastation in ballistic gelatin tests fail miserably on the streets and in combat. If anyone can get these NIJ reports they are a shocking read to the Gelatin lovers.

    Don't take my word for this, research this and find out that gelatin is ONLY a reference not a true test of human anatomy. I will pick facts over fantasy any day.

    Of course a gun is better than no gun.




    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Let's get down to brass tacks. The heresy of the day, which I am about to commit, is that for all intents and purposes the caliber war is meaningless. The difference between ballistic gel performance of the various calibers is pretty darned small.

    Now I'm going to commit the additional heresy of saying that carrying reloads is mostly for show. (Unless it's the zombie apocalypse, in which case there is never going to be enough reloads.) What are you carrying for in the first place? Self defense against 1 (or possibly 2) bad guy(s), MS-13 doing a home invasion of your farmstead 50 miles from town, or some other hypothetical scenario?

    All that having been said, my personal preference is to not say anything about what or how much you carry until your Bat Belt makes the local cops envious.

    Full disclosure: I carry two extra moon clips - mostly to keep me from leaning over on my gun side.

    stay safe.
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 09-30-2014 at 03:49 PM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    There is another argument for a capable caliber and round design. Personally I have seen first hand and read about how a jury will crucify you for shooting someone 8 to 12 times as opposed to once or twice. The Prosecutors line a jury with people who have zero knowledge of guns and shooting except what they saw in a movie to judge the effectiveness of a bullet/rounds ability to stop someone and in almost all cases this jury will ignore the facts and deal you justice based solely on EMOTIONS! Those who were forced to use multiple rounds face a far harder trial that a one of two shot stop of a felon. They will see your being forced to shoot someone that in their minds is too many times as your being brutally excessive. Another reason to find the best caliber/bullet type/Velocity that will do the job with as few rounds fired as possible. So learning to where to hit with each round is very important and learning where to hit to incapacitate and the most effective round/caliber that you can carry is also important. Choose wisely, do your home work, and for GODS sake don't rely on gun sites they pass the most ridiculous rumors and utter trash when it comes to reality in a shooting scenario. Too too many arm chair commandos these days..



    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    Skidmark Note this is not an attack on your post, it is to clear up common misconceptions I see on every gun and carry site. Your post just brought it to mind.


    Your supposition" if that is yours", that caliber is meaningless defies common sense and logic. For those who have seen shootings first hand and been engaged in combat and has poured over thousands of N.I.J shooting reports I promise you caliber can in FACT be the difference between life and death. Also for someone like myself who has a very visible gunshot wound just north of where the heart is and am still here typing to you, I can also say caliber can make a difference. In the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) reports we see that caliber is the crucial difference between life and death with all other things equal. This is why I carry a 45acp loaded with Hornady Critical duty and used to use Corbon. I also carry a .357 with Hornady Critical defense loads in my S&W Model 19 and if I think danger is far far away I might venture around the property with a S&W Model 586 with again very capable loads and a S&W Model 36 as a backup. get the picture yet?

    I have seen people bleed out over a very long time fully ambulatory and could have been saved if they had the presence of mind to seek help. Fact is most all shootings happen very fast literally seconds in time and at very close ranges. Why is this critical? Someone at 6 or 10 feet almost can't miss you and if I have to face this reality that I might take a bullet from a lunatic spray them at me in a panicked attempt to kill me I want a round capable of a one shot STOP! The .45 acp as seen in NIJ reports does this over 70% of the time and the .357 is also in this range. I do not subscribe to the ballistic gelatin as the end all beat all case closed last word because I have seen in real life the so called rounds of instant devastation in ballistic gelatin tests fail miserably on the streets and in combat. If anyone can get these NIJ reports they are a shocking read to the Gelatin lovers.

    Don't take my word for this, research this and find out that gelatin is ONLY a reference not a true test of human anatomy. I will pick facts over fantasy any day.

    Of course a gun is better than no gun.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  18. #18
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    There is another argument for a capable caliber and round design. Personally I have seen first hand and read about how a jury will crucify you for shooting someone 8 to 12 times as opposed to once or twice. The Prosecutors line a jury with people who have zero knowledge of guns and shooting except what they saw in a movie to judge the effectiveness of a bullet/rounds ability to stop someone and in almost all cases this jury will ignore the facts and deal you justice based solely on EMOTIONS! Those who were forced to use multiple rounds face a far harder trial that a one of two shot stop of a felon. They will see your being forced to shoot someone that in their minds is too many times as your being brutally excessive. Another reason to find the best caliber/bullet type/Velocity that will do the job with as few rounds fired as possible. So learning to where to hit with each round is very important and learning where to hit to incapacitate and the most effective round/caliber that you can carry is also important. Choose wisely, do your home work, and for GODS sake don't rely on gun sites they pass the most ridiculous rumors and utter trash when it comes to reality in a shooting scenario. Too too many arm chair commandos these days..
    Maybe you can provide some cites to back up your claim?

    We have had a respected 2A attorney on this site make it clear that none of that garbage that keeps coming up matters. The jury has to decide whether the shooting was justified, or that it was not justified. Type of ammo, how many shots fired until stopped blahhhh blahhhh blahhhh is just blahhhh blahhhhh blahhhhh. If the threat is still a threat then the victim is justified in continuing self defense, even if a hundred rounds are fired. Now if the threat is down and no longer a threat, even one more round is unjustified.

    BTW you should take your own advice, and take a long look in the mirror.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-30-2014 at 04:10 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I know this is hard for some people to understand, but personal preference is the domain of the individual. Not someone trying to control others based on their opinions. It seems to be a common problem on the internet, telling others what to do.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    A wise and experienced man I know once said that the best gun/best caliber to save your life is the gun/caliber you have available when your life needs saving.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    A wise and experienced man I know once said that the best gun/best caliber to save your life is the gun/caliber you have available when your life needs saving.
    +1
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    interesting article in medscape from 2013 which discusses incapacitation of someone due to a a firearm wound:

    quote: Thanks to Hollywood portrayals of gunfights and firearm wounds, many people are of the erroneous opinion that a single firearm wound will cause immediate incapacitation in all cases and that a bullet will knock a victim to the ground, against a wall, or through a window. None of this, of course, is true.

    Victims often sustain firearm wounds, sometimes multiple wounds, without becoming incapacitated.[35] Only a significant central nervous system injury or a wound that compromises the stability and integrity of the supporting skeleton can generally be expected to cause a victim to stop and fall to the ground immediately. The kinetic energy of a bullet striking a target may appear fairly high (in the range of 500-1000 ft-lb of energy for a typical handgun cartridge), but because the bullet mass is so small, the actual momentum transferred to the target is quite small. As such, bullets do not throw or knock victims about.[35] Spitz WU, Petty CS, Fisher RS. Physical activity until collapse following fatal injury by firearms and sharp pointed weapons. J Forensic Sci. 1961;6:290-300.

    Conversely, typical media presentations show firearm victims being rather innocuously wounded in locations such as the extremities or shoulder by a well-placed shot from a hero who "only wanted to 'wing' him, not kill him." In fact, wounds of the extremities are often fatal and/or maiming injuries, and in a gunfight, such precise shot placement on a moving target is highly improbable. unquote

    cite: Forensic Pathology of Firearm Wounds Author: Randall E Frost, MD; Chief Editor: Stephen J Cina, MD, FCAP (2013) retrieved from http://emedicine.medscape.com/articl...erview#showall

    article covered quite a bit of forensic discussion about gunshot wounds.

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-30-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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