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Killed For Open Carry /// I'm Done

Primus

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
FreeInAZ said:
The whole issue is - are officers pointing their guns at people recklessly? By any standard that would be applied to us mere mortal humans (citizens), the answer is a resounding YES, they are often.

So in summary - officers should carry their firearms as they would expect citizens to do under the law. If not, this issue will never get solved. I am all for officers going home at the end of their shifts, just not at the expense of innocent people. If a officer draws his pistol or points his rifle/shotgun it had better be for a damn good reason, not because he/she "feels" that they are entitled to act outside or above the law.
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I agree. Like I said there are idiots who point guns at others when its not needed. That's a training issue.

I train guys civilian side and it's Paramount that you dont point guns at people unless you have to. On the other side training is much more lax because its training for worst case scenario. The problem is guys don't know how to do in the middle. Say... Low ready or by your leg while you assess situation.

Like the guy who was just shot reaching for his wallet. If the officer remained at low ready or even by his side he'd be prepared if it was a weapon. Instead he goes from nothing to shooting. Skipping the middle piece.

Not trying to Monday morning quarterback but an analysis is needed to further your own training/reactions.
 
W

wizzi01

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Detroit
Nightmare said:
Really, and how many such incidents have you had?

Do you understand that the probabilities of independent events are the products of each of the event probabilities? You have had thousands of hours of experience, and 300 million citizens have had billions of hours of experience being legally armed, so the incident per hour rate is what, MINUSCULE?

The stories are selected to propagandize weak minds.
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Neil errr I meant plan b has had plenty of run ins with the law.
 
rightwinglibertarian

rightwinglibertarian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
davidmcbeth said:
"intends to use it"? Minding reading powers...activate.

So if a cop points his gun at you .. then what? He's kinda got the drop on you then, right? A little too late?
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Can't shoot first and ask questions later either. Where are you suggesting the line is?

Primus said:
So your on a traffic stop. Officer sees something or doesn't see something (hands) that gets him on alert. Guaranteed he has no INTENTION of shooting you. But the gun is out because of reason X. Well you see gun and feel "threatened" .You pull/reach for gun. Guess what, now he's going to shoot you.

Some of the things you say seriously make me fear for your safety when you finally get a gun and eventually start carrying. Thats not meant as a slight, I'm genuinely concerns for your safety and those around you.
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Why would a cop even draw his gun unless he was in immediate fear for his life? This is my worry. Cops being too trigger happy. Like that MI video of the cop that saw and OCer and drew his weapon. That is NOT a reason to draw ones weapon.
 
W

wimwag

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
1,049
Location
Doug
If you're trying to convince us to stop carrying you'll have to try harder.
 
rightwinglibertarian

rightwinglibertarian

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Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
827
Location
Seattle WA
wimwag said:
If you're trying to convince us to stop carrying you'll have to try harder.
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I think the OP is more talking personal experience rather than movement wise. However I don't believe the fear is justified as most even corrupt cops won't go as far as murdering in cold blood
 
Plan B

Plan B

Banned
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
144
Location
Earth
Primus said:
Hmmm...

So your gun his holstered on a traffic stop. The officer pulls his for whatever reason. And either points it at or near you. Your answer is......?

Let me say this... Seriously think about that chain of events. Officers draw firearms all the time bases on various situations. Personally, it should NEVER be pointed AT a person unless they are an immediate threat. But, I can't/won't speak for anyone else and I know there are clowns out there who forget what a gun does (makes holes in people). I digress..

So your on a traffic stop. Officer sees something or doesn't see something (hands) that gets him on alert. Guaranteed he has no INTENTION of shooting you. But the gun is out because of reason X. Well you see gun and feel "threatened" .You pull/reach for gun. Guess what, now he's going to shoot you.

I'll take it a step further (this part is important). Ok even if you get the drop on officer A and shoot him in "defense". Now what? Do you think you just drive home? No. What would happen is every officer in the county would come screaming down at Mach 6 because a cop was shot. So they all arrive..... With GUNS OUT and rifles. And they will all be pointed at you. What then?

Do you then go out in a blaze of glory and shoot every officer that is "threatening" you? You'll get shot and killed. Or you could drop gun and submit. Then you'd be in jail for a long time because you killed a cop or cops simply because they pointed a gun at you. So at the end of this situation where are you? Dead or in jail. Why? Because you reacted to a perceived "threat" by going for gun.

In summary, officers do draw firearms on a daily basis. The percentage of times its used is incredibly small. It an officer pulls his gun on a stop/scene there's a guarantee he's not intending to shoot anyone. When you go for gun you just changed that to guarantees he's going to shoot. If he's already shooting at you for no reason then hey how you react is on you. I just advise NOT to escalate it.

Some of the things you say seriously make me fear for your safety when you finally get a gun and eventually start carrying. Thats not meant as a slight, I'm genuinely concerns for your safety and those around you.
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Well said. Don't be an idiot.

FreeInAZ said:
The whole issue is - are officers pointing their guns at people recklessly? By any standard that would be applied to us mere mortal humans (citizens), the answer is a resounding YES, they are often.

So in summary - officers should carry their firearms as they would expect citizens to do under the law. If not, this issue will never get solved. I am all for officers going home at the end of their shifts, just not at the expense of innocent people. If a officer draws his pistol or points his rifle/shotgun it had better be for a damn good reason, not because he/she "feels" that they are entitled to act outside or above the law.
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I have an idea, how about the police stay in the station until someone needs them, and then they can come out to to their jobs, and return to their stations when finished like the firemen do?

One constant truth in life whether you're a kid or a cop, is that if you go looking for trouble, you'll soon find it. No point in letting a mili-gang run around town robbing folks while looking for the next brawl.
 
Ezerharden

Ezerharden

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Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
723
Location
Erie, MI
Michigander

Michigander

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Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Ezerharden said:
I open carry in Ohio frequently already.
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But what about Beavercreek, ever oc there? And even if so why not bring a group? There is something to be said for responding to incidents like this with a walk around town to show people that murderous cops can't be allowed to stifle the exercising of rights.
 
twoskinsonemanns

twoskinsonemanns

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Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Plan B said:
http://theantimedia.org/ohio-open-c...urder-charges-for-cops-who-shot-innocent-man/

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/25/video-proves-cops-shot-guy-in-walmart

From the media reports I've seen in the last few months about things constantly happening like this across the nation, I don't think I will be carrying openly any longer. Maybe once in a while, but for the most part, I'm done.


sig
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I understand your fear. It's justified in my opinion. Though some have claimed the article you linked is sensationalism, the truth imo is the government it'self has sensationalized the "active shooter" problem and hyped up the roid-rage rambos into a frenzy. Any MWAG call may very well lead to a quick government onsite execution. As far as this walmart murder in question... Clearly a kid playing with a toy. He doesn't appear to threaten anyone and the cops definitely didn't give him any opportunity to stop his playing and surrender. They murdered this kid and got away with it.
Being as officer safety trumps all OCing can very well get you killed.
 
twoskinsonemanns

twoskinsonemanns

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Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Plan B said:
Be careful friend, truth has no footing here.
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I don't believe that at all. The large majority here are pro freedom and disgusted by police atrocities. The truth is most welcome by most. Most OCing situations will leave you unscathed. I OC all the time. But I do acknowledge the risks involved. With a ignorant or malicious 911 call by someone I could end up getting my head blown off without ever seeing the cop who did it. I won't quit though. Same with the freedom to speak my opinions and the freedom to be secure in my person. I'm not going to just bend over and say "uncle" because the gov wants to steal those freedoms.
 
K

kubel

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
285
Location
, ,
Primus said:
Some of the things you say seriously make me fear for your safety when you finally get a gun and eventually start carrying. Thats not meant as a slight, I'm genuinely concerns for your safety and those around you.
Click to expand...

What he is morally justified in doing may be different than what self-preservation requires. If he chooses to defend himself against the aggression of a person wearing a goofy costume, that's his choice. I don't think it's a smart choice, seeing as he will likely end up dead going up against an adversary as powerful as the state. But I think it could be a morally justifiable decision.

I hope you are arguing your position from a self-preservation perspective, and not a moral perspective.
 
Primus

Primus

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Joined
Oct 24, 2013
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United States
kubel said:
What he is morally justified in doing may be different than what self-preservation requires. If he chooses to defend himself against the aggression of a person wearing a goofy costume, that's his choice. I don't think it's a smart choice, seeing as he will likely end up dead going up against an adversary as powerful as the state. But I think it could be a morally justifiable decision.

I hope you are arguing your position from a self-preservation perspective, and not a moral perspective.
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As I said. Concern for HIS safety and those around him, to include guys in goofy costumes.

If he wants to defend himself get a audio/video recorder, cooperate, get paid. Or fight/ shoot, get shot, die.

I'd choose option A seeing how you can still stand up for morals, get paid, and ultimately WIN the battle. Dead does not equal a win in my book.
 
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