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Thread: A Policy For Guns In The Workplace

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    A Policy For Guns In The Workplace

    So I was browsing around a major international security organization's website tonight (they are conducting their annual seminar and convention next week in Atlanta) and found their official publication, which included the subject article. To say I was surprised is an understatement. Could there be hope for a reasonable discussion on this topic? This organization has a lot of influence.

    First couple of paragraphs below.

    TFred

    A Policy For Guns In The Workplace

    A Policy For Guns In The Workplace
    Kenneth J. Miller
    09/25/2014 -

    Most states now allow employees to carry concealed firearms or to store guns in cars on company property. Corporations have the right to deny all weapons on their property, but this may not be realistic in today’s environment. Instead, companies should focus on employees who want to carry concealed guns in the workplace and ensure that they are responsible and capable enough to bear the responsibility. All employees will have a better sense of security if they believe that management has done their due diligence by ensuring the people who carry guns are not a threat to the company.

    Companies should implement a comprehensive policy that looks at the issue holistically and addresses not only guns, but violence in the workplace. The first step is to develop a multidisciplinary team to frame the issue and develop appropriate policies. [...]

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I also own a copy of a 2006 book titled "Guns in the Workplace: A Manual for Private Sector Employers and Employees" by Chuck Klein (Merrill Press, Bellevue, WA, ISBN 13: 988-0-836783-49-9) which is a guide to how to develop a workplace policy. The book is available through Amazon, last I looked.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    I don't see this manner of enlightened corporate thinking as something that will sweep American workplaces anytime soon. Sure would like to be wrong though.

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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    They could have a screened, vetted, private security force for free. Instead they'd rather pee themselves and hide under the desk as their threat response.

    There was a firm of lawyers in San Francisco that was shot up in the past several years and nobody had a firearm. Bet they do now.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    I don't see this manner of enlightened corporate thinking as something that will sweep American workplaces anytime soon. Sure would like to be wrong though.
    That's sort of my point in posting this, but maybe I didn't get it out there. I wish I had a way to get this article in front of some eyes with access to large scale exposure.

    The organization that published this article is one of the major professional security affiliation groups out there. This would be something like the American Bankers Association writing an article in support of allowing customers and employees to carry in banks in case they are robbed, or the American Medical Association writing an article on how to implement a policy that allows doctors and nurses to carry on the job in case some mental case comes in with a weapon.

    These folks set trends in the industry, and while not all will openly embrace this one, the fact that a well-reasoned article was published by a group of this stature is astounding, and needs to get lots of light.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Simple:

    If carrying at work doesn't violate the law, weigh the risk/reward factors and decide accordingly.

    If carrying does violate the law "might" want to consider finding the most effective tool that you could have access to and practice with..
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Simple:

    If carrying at work doesn't violate the law, weigh the risk/reward factors and decide accordingly.

    If carrying does violate the law "might" want to consider finding the most effective tool that you could have access to and practice with..
    Office settings are chock full of weapons, even when there is a "No Firearms, No Knives" policy in place. Move to an industrial or food service setting and the word "arsenal" becomes an accurate description of how much is available.

    How does that saying go? "The mind is the weapon; everything else is just a tool."

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Everyone in my office open carries!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Everyone in my office open carries!
    Wunderbar!

    Too bad you can't set foot outside the door that way. (Best wishes on the efforts to change that.)

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    National Review has a contrary view

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    I don't see this manner of enlightened corporate thinking as something that will sweep American workplaces anytime soon. Sure would like to be wrong though.
    Great observation. Regrettably, "enlightened" thinking seems to elude certain conservatives and libertarians. I disagree with Charles C. W. Cooke on this commentary he wrote at National Review:

    “Bring your gun to work” laws and their ilk are a perversion of the principles that got us here.
    As a matter of personal preference, I would certainly encourage private companies to allow their employees to bring their firearms to work, and, as a matter of taste, I would prefer it if those who have been discovered violating company policy were treated gently — especially if they were forced to break the rules in self-defense. But, unless one is to wholly rewrite the nature of American constitutional government, these decisions must be reserved to the private sector, and not to local voters or representatives. Like all of the provisions within the Bill of Rights, the Second Amendment serves as a check on government and on government alone. It does not apply to Walmart or to FedEx or to Joe’s Highway Diner. When the NRA gripes that some politicians are “heeding corporate concerns” over the predilections of gun owners, what it is really saying is that those politicians are respecting property rights and refusing to get involved where they are not welcome. At what point, one wonders, did that become undesirable to liberty-loving people?
    He misses the important point: this is a civil rights issue. If employers discriminate against gun owning employees, based on gun-based phobias, then such discrimination lacks a rational basis. Therefore, legislatures can resolve this problem by providing civil rights protection to these employees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Wunderbar!

    Too bad you can't set foot outside the door that way. (Best wishes on the efforts to change that.)

    stay safe.
    Well, I can, thanks to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act . I don't understand why SC doesn't have open carry. Hopefully it'll change. I know our current governor is an outspoken supporter of constitutional carry.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Everyone in my office open carries!

    No they don't.
    THEY and YOU CARRY BECAUSE OF THE PRIVILEGES AFFORDED THEM BY THE CITIZENS VIA LEGISLATION.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Well, I can, thanks to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act . I don't understand why SC doesn't have open carry. Hopefully it'll change. I know our current governor is an outspoken supporter of constitutional carry.
    Around here cultured folks do not discuss their privileged status. It makes other folks start quoting things about some pigs being more equal than the rest of the animals.

    And if you are wearing a costume while OCing at work that does not count.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Around here cultured folks do not discuss their privileged status. It makes other folks start quoting things about some pigs being more equal than the rest of the animals.

    And if you are wearing a costume while OCing at work that does not count.

    stay safe.
    and the best place for a pig is with a stick up its ass as it gets turned over an open fire

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    Dang, y'all need to lighten up, it was a joke. What happened? Y'all used to be so much friendlier! Things got that much worse since I left Virginia?

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Dang, y'all need to lighten up, it was a joke. What happened? Y'all used to be so much friendlier! Things got that much worse since I left Virginia?

    Not mad at you.

    Just I hate it when folks ....well you get it.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Dang, y'all need to lighten up, it was a joke. What happened? Y'all used to be so much friendlier! Things got that much worse since I left Virginia?
    Just the LEOs. Sadly, they are improperly trained and uneducated in the laws of the Commonwealth.

    We still have a great sense of humor, but the LEOs and the courts have been screwing the citizens as of late.

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    Well, for what it's worth, I'm not a regular pig. I'm just a probation officer. But even after becoming a LEO, I'm just as supportive of OC as I was before!

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Well, for what it's worth, I'm not a regular pig. I'm just a probation officer. But even after becoming a LEO, I'm just as supportive of OC as I was before!
    I met a woman recently (at the Hampton Gun Show) who said she was a former Probation Officer, and that she carried because those who shouldn't have guns already do.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    Well, for what it's worth, I'm not a regular pig. I'm just a probation officer. But even after becoming a LEO, I'm just as supportive of OC as I was before!
    Then show your support of OC by carrying without your "I am special" Junior G-Man Badge. Deal with the issue of OCing like the rest of us have to.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Then show your support of OC by carrying without your "I am special" Junior G-Man Badge. Deal with the issue of OCing like the rest of us have to.

    stay safe.
    When I'm in Virginia, I do OC without a badge, just like I always have. However, OC is illegal in South Carolina, so I don't have that option here.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunter45 View Post
    When I'm in Virginia, I do OC without a badge, just like I always have. However, OC is illegal in South Carolina, so I don't have that option here.
    Then don't flaunt your "special" status. And work with the rest of the folks in SC to change the status of OC while suffering the same hardships and discomforts as they have to endure.

    As far as I'm concerned when you flash the badge as a "Get away with something most people can't do" card you are not doing what most people can't do - you are claiming special privilege and distancing yourself from those without that privilege.

    At this point I think I've said all that can be said from this side of the discussion. I do wish the people of SC good luck in their efforts to make OC legal.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Companies don't want this.

    If they allow guns, they might end up finically responsible for 'accidents' or stray shots during a self defense shooting, etc...

    If their employee dies or can no longer work after being attacked because they could not defend themselves... then they just hire a new person.

    Employees are easy replaceable... the bottom line is more important to them.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    Companies don't want this.

    If they allow guns, they might end up finically responsible for 'accidents' or stray shots during a self defense shooting, etc...

    If their employee dies or can no longer work after being attacked because they could not defend themselves... then they just hire a new person.

    Employees are easy replaceable... the bottom line is more important to them.
    This makes no sense. Why would there be any less liability for an employee killed or injured by a criminal, than for an employee killed or injured by an accident? Especially when the first case could be directly affected by the policy that denies them the tool to defend themselves?

    Some of our legal experts have opined that there IS liability on the part of companies who deny self-protection tools. Perhaps we just need a very high-dollar, high-visibility civil liability case to wake up the corporate attorneys.

    ETA: If the mentality you describe is true, what this tells me is that the corporate bean counters have been suckered into believing the anti-gun propaganda about things such as no real defensive use of guns, and gun owners more likely to hurt themselves than to defend against an attack, etc, etc.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 10-06-2014 at 10:57 AM.

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    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    This makes no sense. Why would there be any less liability for an employee killed or injured by a criminal, than for an employee killed or injured by an accident? Especially when the first case could be directly affected by the policy that denies them the tool to defend themselves?

    Some of our legal experts have opined that there IS liability on the part of companies who deny self-protection tools. Perhaps we just need a very high-dollar, high-visibility civil liability case to wake up the corporate attorneys.

    ETA: If the mentality you describe is true, what this tells me is that the corporate bean counters have been suckered into believing the anti-gun propaganda about things such as no real defensive use of guns, and gun owners more likely to hurt themselves than to defend against an attack, etc, etc.

    TFred
    I never said it made sense. Even insurance rates in public places like restaurants can be lower if guns are banned, etc... They'd have a much harder time proving the company was responsible in any way if they can prove the gunman/attacker/whatever was at fault. I'd love to see a case happen where a company disarmed its employees, someone was seriously hurt or killed and the company was sued for a fortune for preventing adequate self defense for the employee. I don't see this being able to happen in our current judicial system though.

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