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Thread: Tom Gresham and "Gun Talk"

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    Tom Gresham and "Gun Talk"

    I have been a listener of Tom's on Sunday afternoon's for years. Yesterday he was in Chicago for the "Gun Rights Policy Conference", with many talking head guests from the "legal" gun world. The past few weeks he has spoken at length in regards to the Philly mom with a CCW PA. permit arrested in NJ on gun charges.

    TOM GRESHAM IGNORES THE SECOND AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!


    All the talk of Govt. permission slips and gun "laws" on his show by him and those who supposedly "defend" the Second Amendment are nauseating!


    IMO Tom Gresham and his ilk at the NRA, SAF, etc. are NEVER in favor of constitutional carry because their CASH COW will dry up.


    "Shall NOT be infringed" TOM, That is all we need and should DEMAND!

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    So, were all those hours wasted or did some of his agit-prop stick in your mind?
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    I certainly can't speak for Tom, but I've listened to him for years and have met him in his studio while I was "permitless" OCing and he shared his absolute approval. Additionally, it was his show that made me aware of OCDO back in '09. I would bet money that Tom doesn't "ignore" the 2A. From what I can tell, he has a similar attitude to the owner's and moderators of this site... to fight within the system for unfettered keeping and bearing. Because the fight is within the system, statutes and precedents must be considered.

    Speaking directly to this point, I've heard Tom opine that we should not need permits for any type of carry. He appears to me to understand the strict meaning of the 2A and the absolute restriction it placed on the federal government. However, he also understands that the fed and state gov have wiggled from those chains long ago. Who knows... perhaps we can put the genie back in the bottle and get the courts to drop such ridiculous manifestations like "levels of scrutiny" and if that can be done using the existing system, then more power to 'em!

    Edited to add...

    Tom lives in my state and has been an advocate of our local open carry organization called LOCAL. He even brought to our attention a local ordinance forbidding OCing on a public nature trail. He was most certainly advocating permitless OCing as that is the law here in Louisiana.
    Last edited by georg jetson; 09-29-2014 at 02:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    I have been a listener of Tom's on Sunday afternoon's for years. Yesterday he was in Chicago for the "Gun Rights Policy Conference", with many talking head guests from the "legal" gun world. The past few weeks he has spoken at length in regards to the Philly mom with a CCW PA. permit arrested in NJ on gun charges.

    TOM GRESHAM IGNORES THE SECOND AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!


    All the talk of Govt. permission slips and gun "laws" on his show by him and those who supposedly "defend" the Second Amendment are nauseating!


    IMO Tom Gresham and his ilk at the NRA, SAF, etc. are NEVER in favor of constitutional carry because their CASH COW will dry up.


    "Shall NOT be infringed" TOM, That is all we need and should DEMAND!
    Not talking about "Govt. permission slips and gun "laws"", won't make them go away. Like it or not, BOTH exist, and it MAKES SENSE to talk about them. Some gun owners (but very few "enthusiasts") are unfamiliar with the requirements of their home state as regards owning, storing, carrying, etc. To not talk about those things that modify 2A in any fashion, is to do a disservice to the less knowledgeable, the unknowing, and the plain DGAS crowd. Pax...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Not talking about "Govt. permission slips and gun "laws"", won't make them go away. Like it or not, BOTH exist, and it MAKES SENSE to talk about them. Some gun owners (but very few "enthusiasts") are unfamiliar with the requirements of their home state as regards owning, storing, carrying, etc. To not talk about those things that modify 2A in any fashion, is to do a disservice to the less knowledgeable, the unknowing, and the plain DGAS crowd. Pax...
    It is a disservice to discuss these "laws" without unequivocally DENYING their legitimacy. I have heard Alan Gottlieb heralding the most recent ruling in DC and gladly teliing listeners, "IF you register your gun in DC, you can carry it there". WHAT?!!!?! REGISTER?!?!?!?!

    There is too much appearance of acceptance/compromise on giving in to absolutely UNCONSTITUTIONAL "laws" infringing on our right to Keep and Bear arms. These freaking lawyers at the NRA, SFA, etc. butter their bread with threats against our God given rights. If all 50 states went Constitutional Carry overnight the NRA would disappear. They thrive on our rights being denied and Gresham promotes their "angle". He is certainly on record of chastising others who EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS (open carry texas) instead of looking at their reason for protest and joining them in a constructive way.

    Sorry, when there is a National mouthpiece out there for "gun rights" and he continually does not stand on the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY of the 2nd Amendment but would rather "work within the system", I don't trust him further than I could throw him.


    The NRA has taken in enough money in the last 18-24 months to fight every Anti Constitutional gun "law" in every State and WIN, but they never will.

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    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post
    It is a disservice to discuss these "laws" without unequivocally DENYING their legitimacy. I have heard Alan Gottlieb heralding the most recent ruling in DC and gladly teliing listeners, "IF you register your gun in DC, you can carry it there". WHAT?!!!?! REGISTER?!?!?!?!

    Sorry, when there is a National mouthpiece out there for "gun rights" and he continually does not stand on the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY of the 2nd Amendment but would rather "work within the system", I don't trust him further than I could throw him.
    Alan Gottleib is not Tom Gresham. I have heard Gresham state many times that any unnecessary restriction (other than those placed upon the mentally ill) is in violation of our Constitution... specifically 2A. I have witnessed Eric Holder violate 2a repeatedly without being called out for it by his 'brutha' or our Congress, but Holder is not Gresham either. From your screen name, I feel I can safely assume that you think you live in that make-believe state shared between N. Cal and S. Oregon. I would suggest you try forcing some reality into your imagination. I stand by my comments. Pax..
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    Gil: Tom has Gottlieb on his show on a VERY regular basis. He was propping him up a couple months ago from criticism by Dudley Brown and leveling the same charges against Brown (in it for the $$$$$$) that have been said about gottlieb.

    I am not comfortable with a National voice (Gresham) consistently talking of "National Reciprocity" in admiration and supporting callers when they say the same thing.

    WE ALREADY HAVE NATIONAL RECIPROCITY.

    "IT'S THE SECOND AMENDMENT, STUPID"


    I have been wanting to call him about my concerns on this during his show. I was going to Sunday, but for 3 hours he took no calls as he talked to guest after guest at the "Gun Rights Policy Conference" regarding working WITHIN the system. It started ringing true as I listened to all of them that if we had ABSOLUTE Constitutional gun Rights they would be out of work and more importantly for them $$$$$$$$$$$$.

    The NRA is the worst offender, how many tens or hundreds of millions have they taken in in the last couple years and WHERE are THEY getting these "laws" overturned?


    "Reality", Gil? Reality is OC or CC based on the 2nd Amendment and NOT some permission slip handed out by Government.

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    I didn't hear it but I frequently hear the "if we get constitutional carry X will be out of job which is why we don't have it." We don't have it because we can't get enough of the population to support it in most states.

    As to national CC reciprocity, I and many of the talking heads on the matter see it as a not an end but a stepping stone towards reestablishing constitutional carry. I strongly support national CC reciprocity, not to line anyone's pockets, but because it it such a natural point of argument paralleling driver's licenses and because it makes one more plank of the anti's argument fall into the pit when thousands of out of state citizens without draconian screening start carrying in those deep blue cities and ... nothing happens significantly just like nothing bad has happened anywhere with a shift back towards freedom in gun laws. Hopefully it makes the citizens of those states step up to their legislatures and ask why Bob in OH doesn't have to go through all that bull squeeze to carry in New Jersey but he does because he lives there. That in turn is one more step towards constitutional carry.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    I didn't hear it but I frequently hear the "if we get constitutional carry X will be out of job which is why we don't have it." We don't have it because we can't get enough of the population to support it in most states.

    As to national CC reciprocity, I and many of the talking heads on the matter see it as a not an end but a stepping stone towards reestablishing constitutional carry. I strongly support national CC reciprocity, not to line anyone's pockets, but because it it such a natural point of argument paralleling driver's licenses and because it makes one more plank of the anti's argument fall into the pit when thousands of out of state citizens without draconian screening start carrying in those deep blue cities and ... nothing happens significantly just like nothing bad has happened anywhere with a shift back towards freedom in gun laws. Hopefully it makes the citizens of those states step up to their legislatures and ask why Bob in OH doesn't have to go through all that bull squeeze to carry in New Jersey but he does because he lives there. That in turn is one more step towards constitutional carry.
    It is an excellent parallel to drivers' licences. That's exactly how we lost our right to travel. Now all travel is licensed... and I fear we're headed that way with the R2K&B.

    For example, here in Louisiana, there's a law on the books banning firearms in any place that sells alcohol for consumption on its premises. Finally, this has changed, for licensed CC permit holders only. This is just one more thing to "entice" trading a right for permission. Once most types of carry become licensed, then the license is held over our heads to enforce ridiculous regulations.

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    I hope the OP does call the show. This is always a good topic -- Getting *something* while working toward everything, versus demanding everything RIGHT NOW.

    There should be no carry permits. That's a given. But, there are, so we work to push them back, eliminate them where and when possible, and support the concept of carry without asking permission.

    As for Shaneen Allen, the mother who was arrested in NJ. I'm confused. Would the OP have preferred that we just leave her in prison because she didn't have the right piece of paper? Because she didn't have the right CARRY PERMIT? As it turned out, her case has done wonders at educating the public about the hazards of laws such as those in NJ, and many people have reacted with a version of "I didn't know that. It's crazy that someone could go to prison for just crossing the state line with a gun that's legal on the other side of that state line." Once you have that conversation going, you have momentum for changing things.

    There was also some funny stuff in the OP about revenue streams. Since I don't get any money from SAF or NRA, and since NRA stays somewhat to very POed at me most of the time, that brought on a chuckle.

    Seriously, though, the call-in lines are open. Call the show. You will, of course, have to give a name. We will ask for your phone number. We delete these after the show, but it's amazing how just doing this has pretty much eliminated the crank calls.

    When someone knows his comments and his behavior can be attributed to him, well . . . for some folks, that changes the behavior and comments.

    1-866-825-5486 (I-TOM-TALK-GUN)is the call-in number. The show is live from 1:06pm til 4:00pm Central time on Sundays. Sometimes, when we do a remote (as we did last week at the GRPC), we fill the time with guests who are there, and we don't take calls. That's about four times a year.

    If you can't listen on one of the 188 radio stations which carry the show, you can pick it up through the I Heart Radio app, Stitcher, iTunes, live streaming, the Gun Talk Radio app (iPhone and Android), or go directly to www.guntalk.libsyn.com to download past shows.

    This Sunday, we'll be getting on our Gun Geek with technical talk about rimfire ammo, talking with Ruger about their new guns, chatting with the CEO of a major gun company, announcing a new gun giveaway, and (I hope) taking a call about open carry, constitutional carry, and how I "ignore the Second Amendment."

    The welcome mat is out.

    Tom Gresham (because I sign my real name to what I write)

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    Thumbs down Ridiculous!

    What are you talking about? Tom Gresham is the first to suggest Constitutional Carry should be the law of the land. He has said so many times! Only difference is he's using his head and you don't seem to be. Do you even listen to his show?

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    Tom, can you direct us to a listing of stations carrying the show? Also, are there any XM radio stations that carry it?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Tom, can you direct us to a listing of stations carrying the show? Also, are there any XM radio stations that carry it?
    Hi, Deep:

    www.guntalk.com/listen has a list of stations, plus a list of those which do live streaming.

    Not on XM. Used to be, but XM killed off several channels, including the one we were on.

    Gun Talk app on Apple App store and on Amazon (for Android version).

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    What's YOUR Plan, What Have YOU done, Jeff. State?

    So, Jeff. State says; "WE ALREADY HAVE NATIONAL RECIPROCITY. "IT'S THE SECOND AMENDMENT, STUPID"

    OK, so how long will you stay out of prison with the Second Amendment as YOUR carry permit in D.C., or anywhere else for that matter??? And for the record, EXACTLY WHAT is YOUR plan to force government to recognize your "permit?"

    SAF, NRA, Gresham, Gottleib and Gura and others have done PLENTY within the system to gain back ground on our rights, (Heller, McDonald, Ezell, etc.). EXACTLY WHAT have YOU done, Jeff. State??? (I'll bet it's NOTHING other than gratuitous bomb throwing here and other sites.)

    You know, the NRA existed BEFORE we had any draconian national gun laws. Your completely gratuitous assertion that the NRA would disappear if we eliminated unconstitutional gun laws is absurd. (You're confusing NRA-ILA with NRA?) And your gratuitous assertion that the NRA has plenty of money to bring lawsuits shows your complete ignorance of the enormous, ENORMOUS, cost of challenging unconstitutional laws in the court system, not to mention your complete ignorance of the tactics and strategy necessary to ACTUALLY win those court cases.

    Our rights were whittled away a little at a time over decades, and it will take time to get them back. This notion of wrapping ourselves ONLY in the Second Amendment will get us no where, but maybe a new address for a few years courtesy of the government, and stripped of that right....FOREVER.

    Wise up!

    Alan Neuman (Not afraid of using my real name.)
    Utah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    Hi, Deep:

    www.guntalk.com/listen has a list of stations, plus a list of those which do live streaming.

    Not on XM. Used to be, but XM killed off several channels, including the one we were on.

    Gun Talk app on Apple App store and on Amazon (for Android version).
    Thanks. Bookmarked it for perusal.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Tom: I have called your show over the years on quite a few occasions, usually about guns. The most recent was when you had CJ Grisham on to ostracize OCT the best you could. I called and tried to point out to you as CJ did that OC groups in Texas are doing what they can (open carrying long guns) to draw attention to their MAIN point. LEGALIZE open carry of handguns. Your answer to me is "Rick Perry will never allow OC handguns" but call your "representative" anyway. huh???????? It's TEXAS! Open carry of whatever one pleases should be a stinking given.

    My view and yours split on our "faith" in the system. "The system" in this nation from nearly every Municipality to the Federal Government is broken. A few instances where freedoms are restored are a dying light in this nation not a growing one. Call me negative if you want, I've got the massive expansion of Government backing my POV.

    Pardon my passion over this as I am NOT willing to throw aside my God Given rights over a Judges decision or "public opinion".


    "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice". Those words appear to scare an awful lot of gun owners these days. I have been called an "extremist" for my ABSOLUTE interpretation of the Second Amendment. So be it.


    --------------------

    Alneuman: I shouldn't have to " plan to force government to recognize your "permit"..... Their OATHS to The Constitution should be all the protection FROM them I need.

    Do you propose I go to prison because of my failure to obtain PERMISSION to carry as I see fit, and get caught by the proper "authority"?

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    Passion is fine, Jeff.

    But, when you say that I ignore the Second Amendment, and you say things like "Tom Gresham and his ilk . . . " you are not just showing passion. You are telling lies, spreading hatred, and following the trend that says anyone who works for the Second Amendment in a manor that's different from yours is . . what? Working AGAINST the Second Amendment?

    I started actively fighting gun control laws in 1967. Soon after that it became an important part of the career I chose, and I've been fighting gun control laws for more than 40 years.

    My position is clear -- and simple. We should repeal every gun control law. Period. Not really hard to understand, is it? I've said that hundreds of times on the air. If you have a way to say that which makes it more clear, I'm open to suggestions.

    My other position is that I'm primarily interested in winning. NOT making gun banners publicly admit that they are wrong and we are right. For some strange reason, some folks on the gun rights side have that as their goal, and it often prevents them from recognizing a win -- or a loss. If you don't know which of your efforts results in wins and which result in loses, it's likely that you'll continue to do things that increase the loses.

    My question is always "Is what we are doing working?" Does a particular move, or tactic, or campaign bring us closer to whatever that specific goal is? How would you know? What is your measuring mechanism? Who are you talking to? (Hint: If it's only other gun rights folks, you can not know if your tactics are working.)

    You say you have no faith in "the system." What system is that? Elections? Legislative changes? Litigation? Should we abandon our efforts (where we have made massive gains in the last few years)? In favor of doing . . . what?

    Now, to dig a bit deeper. ALL the rights we are able to enjoy (note the careful use of words, please, because I did not say the rights we have) are dependent upon public opinion. HORRORS! Did I really just say that? Of course I did. Run it out as far as you can imagine. Public opinion can and has repealed Constitutional amendments. If you want to win in elections, in the legislatures and in Congress, and in courts, you MUST win public opinion.

    (Note, please, that yesterday I was carrying my 1911 openly, because that worked for the dress and the occasion. Later in the day, I was carrying concealed, because fit the dress and the occasion.)

    Here's the question I ask on the air, and I ask it here. Have the long gun carry efforts inside stores, with photos posted, improved our image with the public? Or, do you think these staged efforts drive the public toward more restrictive gun control laws? What do you base your opinion on? I suggest talking to people in stores -- people you don't know. Strike up a conversation with a dozen people in a Target, Macys, Dillards, Williams Sonoma, etc., and get their opinion. I suspect you'll find, as have I, that much of the public is not in favor of this, and that (the most important part) they would like to see laws preventing long gun open carry.

    If that is the case, and these actions are driving the public toward supporting MORE gun laws, and not fewer gun laws (and we won't even talk about the PR bonanza it provides the anti-gun groups), in what metric does this qualify as winning?

    Stomping your feet and *demanding* your gun rights doesn't nothing more than show the world that we don't know how to get things done.

    Actually WORKING on it . . . in legislatures, in Congress, in elections, in the courts, through public relations, is certainly less satisfying than just yelling I WANT WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT IT.

    As boring, tedious, frustrating, time-consuming, difficult and expensive as it is to do these things, these are how we currently are winning.

    The gun banners didn't make so much progress by demanding. They worked the system for 50 years while many on our side comforted themselves with "What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED don't you understand?" Cute. Catchy. And totally not helpful.

    We will not continue to win back gun rights without being willing to fight, and without being willing to make honest appraisals of our successes and our failures.
    Last edited by Tom Gresham; 10-08-2014 at 08:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff. State View Post

    Alneuman: I shouldn't have to " plan to force government to recognize your "permit"..... Their OATHS to The Constitution should be all the protection FROM them I need.

    Do you propose I go to prison because of my failure to obtain PERMISSION to carry as I see fit, and get caught by the proper "authority"?
    Jeff. State, you're absolutely right that oaths of office SHOULD be be all the protection we need...BUT PUBLIC OFFICIALS VIOLATE THEIR OATHS ON A DAILY BASIS! Again, we need MORE than should-ing on each other. We need WHAT WORKS, as Gresham so VERY, VERY, APTLY put it!

    And no, I'm NOT saying that you SHOULD go to prison, I'm saying you WILL go to prison...if you break the law and count on wrapping yourself in the 2nd Amendment for protection when you're prosecuted. The State has more power to take away your rights than the 2nd Amendment has to protect you!

    As Gresham asked, Jeff. State, do you want to win, or just be a martyr for your beliefs???

    Again...time to WISE UP!

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    Learn of self-immolation and martyrdom irrigating the Tree of Liberty. Freedom isn't free.
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    "Public opinion" for the American Revolution was around 30 percent in favor. We may still be "working within the system" had LIBERTY minded individuals not banded together to say enough.

    Gunowners are at a point where a massive show of force needs to be shown. Our "enough" moment is here. No more Kalifornia gun bans, no more New Yorks, Connecticuts, etc. If they want to pass their UNCONSTITUTIONAL "laws" let them secede from the union. Much of the North East and Kalifornia are virtually Constitution Free zones.

    The Second Amendment is all every single American needs to arm themselves as they see fit!

    A national "campaign" needs to be undertaken to right the wrongs regarding the self described "Second Amendment" groups like the NRA, national voices like Tom, etc. They need to voice the statement of ALL gunowners that the RIGHT to keep and bear arms is NOT NEGOTIABLE.

    "Law" Enforcement nationwide needs to be reminded of their freaking OATHS, and that they should not follow/enFORCE "laws" that infringe on a citizens Right to keep and bear arms. Tom, next time you're with Massad ask him how many people he has arrested for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, I'm curious. I hope it is zero.

    Hunters and Sportsman that only have a rile for deer or a shotgun for pheasants need to be reminded that "military" arms are exactly what the Second Amendment was talking about (I have heard TOO MANY hunters say they could care less about the "military guns" being banned).


    Tom you are right. "Stomping our feet and "demanding" our gun rights" doesn't do a thing. Carrying as we choose, and putting all involved (politicians and Law Enforcement) on notice, they cannot/will not disregard their Oath to the Constitution. Open Carrying, Concealed Carrying without Government permission IS NOT against the law because the very "law" itself saying you cant, is Unconstitutional. And no POLITICIAN wearing a robe can say it isn't.


    Reversing the wrongs Politicians have committed through legislative action will quietly happen for fear of The People. Not the majority but the minority who The Constitution is supposed to protect.

    Too Many people with too much complacency are saying things like "If you register your gun in DC, you can carry it". We don't need statements like that coming from those "fighting" for our RIGHTS.


    Give us our uninfringed Right back, and groups like OCT wont be out "scaring" people like Professional PR rep., GE and Monsanto damage control person Shannon Watts, and all the "concerned moms" like her.

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    You know.

    If somehow a bloodless "revolution" regarding the restoration of the Second Amendment Rights nationwide occurred. I have a feeling the politicians would be "representing" their constituents and the WELFARE OF THIS NATION a whole lot better than what has been happening for decades now. Look around you, America is in decline and it hasn't happened accidently or by unfortunate circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alneuman View Post

    The State has more power to take away your rights than the 2nd Amendment has to protect you!

    And it's only getting worse.................... Al


    Go ahead and keep waiting for "the system" to work in your favor. Let me know how it turns out for your descendants years from now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    Passion is fine, Jeff.

    But, when you say that I ignore the Second Amendment, and you say things like "Tom Gresham and his ilk . . . " you are not just showing passion. You are telling lies, spreading hatred, and following the trend that says anyone who works for the Second Amendment in a manor that's different from yours is . . what? Working AGAINST the Second Amendment?

    I started actively fighting gun control laws in 1967. Soon after that it became an important part of the career I chose, and I've been fighting gun control laws for more than 40 years.

    My position is clear -- and simple. We should repeal every gun control law. Period. Not really hard to understand, is it? I've said that hundreds of times on the air. If you have a way to say that which makes it more clear, I'm open to suggestions.

    My other position is that I'm primarily interested in winning. NOT making gun banners publicly admit that they are wrong and we are right. For some strange reason, some folks on the gun rights side have that as their goal, and it often prevents them from recognizing a win -- or a loss. If you don't know which of your efforts results in wins and which result in loses, it's likely that you'll continue to do things that increase the loses.

    My question is always "Is what we are doing working?" Does a particular move, or tactic, or campaign bring us closer to whatever that specific goal is? How would you know? What is your measuring mechanism? Who are you talking to? (Hint: If it's only other gun rights folks, you can not know if your tactics are working.)

    You say you have no faith in "the system." What system is that? Elections? Legislative changes? Litigation? Should we abandon our efforts (where we have made massive gains in the last few years)? In favor of doing . . . what?

    Now, to dig a bit deeper. ALL the rights we are able to enjoy (note the careful use of words, please, because I did not say the rights we have) are dependent upon public opinion. HORRORS! Did I really just say that? Of course I did. Run it out as far as you can imagine. Public opinion can and has repealed Constitutional amendments. If you want to win in elections, in the legislatures and in Congress, and in courts, you MUST win public opinion.

    (Note, please, that yesterday I was carrying my 1911 openly, because that worked for the dress and the occasion. Later in the day, I was carrying concealed, because fit the dress and the occasion.)

    Here's the question I ask on the air, and I ask it here. Have the long gun carry efforts inside stores, with photos posted, improved our image with the public? Or, do you think these staged efforts drive the public toward more restrictive gun control laws? What do you base your opinion on? I suggest talking to people in stores -- people you don't know. Strike up a conversation with a dozen people in a Target, Macys, Dillards, Williams Sonoma, etc., and get their opinion. I suspect you'll find, as have I, that much of the public is not in favor of this, and that (the most important part) they would like to see laws preventing long gun open carry.

    If that is the case, and these actions are driving the public toward supporting MORE gun laws, and not fewer gun laws (and we won't even talk about the PR bonanza it provides the anti-gun groups), in what metric does this qualify as winning?

    Stomping your feet and *demanding* your gun rights doesn't nothing more than show the world that we don't know how to get things done.

    Actually WORKING on it . . . in legislatures, in Congress, in elections, in the courts, through public relations, is certainly less satisfying than just yelling I WANT WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT IT.

    As boring, tedious, frustrating, time-consuming, difficult and expensive as it is to do these things, these are how we currently are winning.

    The gun banners didn't make so much progress by demanding. They worked the system for 50 years while many on our side comforted themselves with "What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED don't you understand?" Cute. Catchy. And totally not helpful.

    We will not continue to win back gun rights without being willing to fight, and without being willing to make honest appraisals of our successes and our failures.
    Well said. +1
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  24. #24
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I not taking a side, but can someone provide cites to Tom Gresham standing up for constitutional carry?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
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  25. #25
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    I can see that the topic of this thread is about Tom, but the OP seems willing to move the conversation to a more open discussion of the 2A in general. If so then I have some questions.

    -Working "outside the system" can have different meanings. Does it have to include bloodshed?

    -I say the number one enemy of individual rights is the legal profession. At one time, it was understood that a Republican form of government required strict adhearance to a written constitution. The courts have slowly morfed this into a long list of excuses why the written constitution can be superceeded. Once this genie has been let out of this bottle, can it be placed back by working "within the system"?

    -Tom brings up a good point about the rights we're able to enjoy being subject to public opinion. This idea is an old one and is the very reason it takes more than a simple majority to change the several constitutions. However, if we allow simple majority opinion to rule the day, we'll inevitably lose the battle. How do we restore the authority of the several constitutions "working within the system"? So far the only "victories" I see succeed in changing state law, but in no way have I seen a 2A victory remove any of the court's excuses to violate it. Even in the Heller v DC "win" the SCOTUS makes it clear that...

    "The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56."

    I'm not contending that this was not a win, but how does it get us any closer to having the full authority of the several constitutions restored?
    Last edited by georg jetson; 10-08-2014 at 03:18 PM.

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