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Thread: Pulled Over while Open Carrying?

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    Pulled Over while Open Carrying?

    I am sure that this has been covered before on here, but I am not sure about it. If I were to get pulled over while I had my handgun on my side in its holster, would I need to let the LEO know that I have a gun on my waist?

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    OP, short answer yes.
    long winded explaination:
    as you indicated this subject has been covered previously, so please aim your kind attention to your first thread you posted out here on the forum where you were given links to NC statutes as well as the NC AG's firearm overview.

    in the NC AG's document' section III D, around pg 23 i believe, you can read there are no NC statutes covering transporting firearms, including other 'weapons' in vehicles on NC roads. However, the AG goes on to state ~ 'officer safety' is paramount and the AG indicates immediate self disclosure is good for your internal soul.

    now here begins the ensuing discussion...there are some indivuals who carry their firearm on the seat, some carry a opened lockable container on the seat and close it upon encounters, there are some who carry on their immediate person w/o benefit of a CHP and then wing it during encounter(s), and finally there are those who have their CHP and provide the document along with their DL, ins, & registration. of course there are multiple options from there.

    remember, if you carry it on your person w/o benefit of CHP ~which is linked to your DL number, you might have bit of tap dancing to do during your encounter w/the nice officer after they run your licence.

    bottom line, your choice of how you wish to transport in your vehicle based on if you, as Dirty Harry used to say...You feel lucky, punk?

    i am sure others will be along to pontificate why their vehicle carry methodology is better or worse, just don't forget, INAL and i just pointed out where to find the information.

    btw what happened to your organizing get togethers?

    ipse
    Last edited by solus; 09-30-2014 at 05:21 AM.
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    Regular Member Jamesm760's Avatar
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    If a LEO pulls ME over and he can't figure out that I'm carrying based on the glock, ruger, BCM, S&W, MALON LABE, Gadsden Flag stickers... he needs to find a new job.

    To answer the question, yes I still let him know regardless of where it is in the vehicle. Although some people don't like to let them know due to them OCing and it not being required to inform the LEO, I inform because the LEO is being recorded by me and me informing the officer that there is a firearm in the vehicle is my way of making sure there are no surprises for the officer to give him a reason to pull his gun out and shoot me... Just my opinions, my thoughts, you might not agree, you might think of a scenario to counter my thought/opinion. Do what you will.
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    D. Transporting Weapons: ... Page 22 and 23

    Given this general prohibition of carrying concealed weapons, ... Therefore, the permittee’s accessibility to the weapon is of prime importance. It is unlawful to transport a weapon (absent a proper permit) that is BOTH concealed and readily accessible to a person. It is for these reasons, that when transporting a weapon in a vehicle, even greater care must be exercised to ensure that the weapon is not concealed and within the ready access to an occupant of the vehicle. North Carolina law does not specifically address how to transport a weapon in an automobile. Therefore, the central question becomes: when is the weapon concealed and readily accessible to an occupant of an automobile? ...

    While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual’s purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety. ...

    http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299...-gun-Laws.aspx
    The short answer is no. You are not required to inform "If I [you] were to get pulled over while I [you] had my [your] handgun on my [your] side in its holster.

    Now, does any given cop know this is the question. Proceed as the law requires.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Okay. Thanks for the replies. I believe I would be more comfortable just letting the officer know up front. No need to be technical about the law like you see on YouTube. As for the meet-up: I posted a thread in the events section, but no one ever replied.

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    OC4ME i find it fascinating you included but failed to highlite the last sentence of the AG's statement to emphasis your point where he states:

    quote it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety. unquote you will notice the sentence does not state OC or

    while i know the AG's tome is not statute nor binding per se, tho you perhaps a have a different meaning of the words imperative or immediately notify or of presence of any weapon as they are tied together in this sentence. perhaps you know with certainty the good peace officers in the Tarheel state, one and all, are well trained, due to this exemplary training the good olde boys are not easily spooked into rash thinking or action upon finding a driver with a weapon they were not informed about, and of course they would never see fit to exact real or perceived retribution on NC citizens for failing to notify said peace officer.

    while not normally a cautious individual, based on just the recent LE - citizen encounters, i have adopted a more cynical outlook in my dealing with the good olde boys in blue and as such, might capitulate as my healing powers are not what they were when i was a younger individual.

    i am finally understanding what my pappy meant as he was fond of say'g, you can be right in principle ~ but dead wrong six feet under.

    y'al come back ya hear.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    OC4ME i find it fascinating you included but failed to highlite the last sentence of the AG's statement to emphasis your point where he states:

    ...
    Really. And you focusing on a opinion and not the law speak volumes.

    Here is a little bone for you:
    While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed,...
    ...thus no permit is required.

    Which stands in stark contrast to this:
    As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety.
    The AG's opinion is not based on the law but his personal bias against the citizenry of NC in favor of LE in NC. As such it is not worth the virtual paper it is written on. It is a cop's responsibility to follow the law, just as we are to follow the law. If we both follow the law we are both safe.

    You advocate informing the cop where there is no requirement to do so...OK, no big deal.

    I advocate that the OP proceed as the law allows. Just as we should expect the AG to speak to the law and not provide his opinions in a manner that clearly confuses the issue and some NC citizens.

    The OP has read the responses, the linked document (I suppose), and informed us of his likely course of action. Good enough for me.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    I've posted this elsewhere when this question comes up, I don't take it out of it's holster nor do I tell the LEO that I'm carrying.

    Only been pulled over for speeding, so I never had to get out.

    If I had to exit the truck, then I think I would inform him that I was legally OC'ing.

    YMMV
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    Keep hands on the wheel and KYBMS, unless you are concealing. I don't inform, and had to exit the vehicle for commercial inspections. Just because they cannot see it does not make it concealed. IMO with a jittery officer you are more likely to incur harm by notifying them, especially if they are the ones that make stupid demands. Such "Give me your gun?".

    NO MATTER what never touch your gun in a legitimate stop. Unless you are securing it before your vehicle comes to a stop, or placing in a obvious location. There is a holster made for airline pilots that will accept a padlock, which would limit an excuse for the officer to use deadly force. Would be awful hard for them to explain.

    Also "I have a gun" while officer approaches or is at your window is not a wise idea. All the officer hears is "gun" and may take it as a threat. In the case of a CHP the correct thing to do is "I have a CHP". Then the officer will ask you if you have weapon on you or in the vehicle. For your own safety it is just not wise to say anything related to gun, or the officer may shoot prematurely.

    BTW when I was stopped after I exited I kept my gun hand on the chrome rail beside my door, at least until the trooper saw I was armed. Make sure anytime you exit to keep your hand away from your gun until told to do otherwise.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 09-30-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    remember, if you carry it on your person w/o benefit of CHP ~which is linked to your DL number, you might have bit of tap dancing to do during your encounter w/the nice officer after they run your licence.
    I think this is the key here. I see your DL and CHP are linked. We have the same in Washington state. I listen to the scanner during the day for the comedy. When I hear people being pulled over for whatever reason, al the info, ALL the info on you will go over the air. DL number, outstandings, and your pistol license. All this just from your license plate. Now that gives LEO you the reg owner, maybe not the actual driver.

    It depends upon how safe you feel with your peedee. I feel safe with mine that they will follow State law and leave me(LAC) the hell alone. My Sweet Baboo was driving her miata and she was tagged for speeding. We pulled over, he was on a bike, and he called in her tag. He was told that she had no warrants, a clean license and a CPL. He already knew when approaching the vehicle that she was potentially armed. No worries. I was open carry, she was concealed(fashion), we joked about her getting the ticket as she had rec'd one from the same LEWO at the same location two years prior. Nothing said about weapons as they did not enter the current equation.

    I know some people who do not trust their LEOs as much and include the CPL with the DL when the LEO approaches the vehicle. I found out in just the last few days that it is policy to ask if weapons are in the vehicle, regardless of the RAS for the stop. Sorry mate, not your business how many weapons I have if it does not pertain to the current situation. More research on this one needed.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    hurray OC4ME, you used the same NC AG opinion based document for your response to me that you chided me about...nice touch.
    fair enough...

    tho please indulge a question...when NC municipalities, DA & their legal staff, sheriffs, Chief's of Police, etc., have a legal query about interpretation of NC statutes, whom do they ask for guidance?

    sorry, but a follow-up comes to mind...to respond to the interpretation requested the NC AG & their staff generate an 'opinion' based on their knowledge of statutes, case studies, political mood at the time, etc., on the subject...not validating the morality of doing so but can these 'opinions' be used by the county DA(s) to run a NC citizen through the judicial system and cause havoc on the NC citizen defending themselves (reads $$$)from this ambiguous opinion not based on statute?

    I have steadfastly stated i do not wish to draw attention to myself thus possibility mitigating and precluding having to defend myself from the witch hunts precipitated by an over zealous peace officer because he believes their safety is in jeopardy.

    ipse

    addendum: thanks WW i keep forgetting to mention the other NC DOJ mantra that is taught to NC peace officer trainees. Citizens are taught in their CHP courses to keep their hands you hands on the steering wheels, etc.
    Last edited by solus; 09-30-2014 at 01:27 PM.
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    MSG, in the Tarheel state we have a myriad of BLET trained (passed is the optimum word) folk patrolling the highway that the Evergreen state might not delineate. these individuals range from campus security - hospital, university, & mall settings, through the state trooper category who are chartered by statute to accomplish CSI activities within the state. as you can imagine, once BLET is complete against a set of DOJ curriculum, not all LE's receive the same level of 'refresher training' except through maybe a DOJ memo which they are suppose to read.

    all BLET graduates working as peace officers have arrest powers and a lot of the campus LE are using the highways through their areas as profit centers by enforcing traffic statutes.

    these are the folk who, IMHO are worrisome in their response to citizens as their testosterone is flowing and they perceive they are in the big boy world expecting to make it big arresting the next terrorist about to blow up farmer john's fruit stand.

    i will leave you with this...remember Mayberry's w/ barney fife was set in a NC setting...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    hurray OC4ME, you used the same NC AG opinion based document for your response to me that you chided me about...nice touch.
    fair enough...
    I am at a loss, Sir, as to the various definitions applied to NC statutes, by various entities in NC, that require interpretation, by the NC AG, regarding the legality of OC in a vehicle as well as a requirement to notify when a NC citizen is OCing in a vehicle.

    I take the NC AG at his word where he states that OC is not concealing, no legal requirement to inform, yet goes on to say that notifying is a good idea.

    For clarification purposes:
    ...would I need to let the LEO know that I have a gun on my waist?
    True, the word 'need' seems to beg for a clarification question, but I typically take folks to mean what they say.

    Then you state:
    solus
    OP, short answer yes.
    Again, taking you at your word, is there or is there not a requirement in the law to inform? You then go on to state this:
    remember, if you carry it on your person w/o benefit of CHP ~which is linked to your DL number, you might have bit of tap dancing to do during your encounter w/the nice officer after they run your license.
    If a CHP is not required to OC in NC, as I think that this is the case, then a CHP is not required to OC in a vehicle, which the AG unequivocally states is not concealing. So, a CHP is not required to be in a NC citizen's possession to OC in a vehicle.

    I provided the OP with the most correct answer to his specific question based on the documents I found during a very limited search that other NC citizens cite as a useful source.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Another option would be a business card handed to the officer that states "I am a lawfully armed citizen". May also want to include "I do not consent to any search and seizure" and "This interaction is being recorded". If you have an attorney, he/she name could be on the flip side.

    Again do not use the word gun on the card.
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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am at a loss, Sir, as to the various definitions applied to NC statutes, by various entities in NC, that require interpretation, by the NC AG, regarding the legality of OC in a vehicle as well as a requirement to notify when a NC citizen is OCing in a vehicle.

    I take the NC AG at his word where he states that OC is not concealing, no legal requirement to inform, yet goes on to say that notifying is a good idea.

    For clarification purposes:True, the word 'need' seems to beg for a clarification question, but I typically take folks to mean what they say.

    Then you state:Again, taking you at your word, is there or is there not a requirement in the law to inform? You then go on to state this:If a CHP is not required to OC in NC, as I think that this is the case, then a CHP is not required to OC in a vehicle, which the AG unequivocally states is not concealing. So, a CHP is not required to be in a NC citizen's possession to OC in a vehicle.

    I provided the OP with the most correct answer to his specific question based on the documents I found during a very limited search that other NC citizens cite as a useful source.
    thrice, for reasons only known to you, you continue to ignore the AG's explicit comment: quote: As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer’s and the vehicle’s occupants’ safety.

    additionally, for some reason you continually insist of taking my comments out of context as the material attributed to me in your recent post actually refers to the information contained in the paragraph i discussed above in my original post.

    further, as stated in my initial respose to the OP, my second paragraph, the OP was provided exactly those same specific cites when he was welcomed to the NC subform earlier this year and followed up by the exact section, paragraph, and page number you provided. quite a coincidence huh!

    finally, as you state, i also provided the OP with a short sweet response based on interpretation of the same cites we both referenced but based on information NC DOJ coupled with my limited in-state working knowledge and experience of dealing with the diverse LE population within NC LE sectors. strictly based on the above statement 'it is imperative...' my answer is still yes, tell the nice peace officer you have a weapon in the vehicle! saves time, energy, and possibly $$$ for all concerned.

    so may i ask the gentleman from Wisconsin the last time he had first hand face to face experience dealing with eastern (i try to stay away from dealing with the western side as they have their own rules over there) NC's campus security type LEs or any of the local good olde boy deputies or the local yocal city LEs? (since you haven't answered any of the other questions posed to you by me, please consider it a rhetorical question for all intent and purposes.)

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

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    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Another option would be a business card handed to the officer that states "I am a lawfully armed citizen". May also want to include "I do not consent to any search and seizure" and "This interaction is being recorded". If you have an attorney, he/she name could be on the flip side.

    Again do not use the word gun on the card.
    you know WW i hadn't considered this, especially with the attorney's name & number on the back! i will have to print some up and hand it w/DL, Ins, and reg next time i am pulled over.

    now i am curious what the response would be from the nice peace officer(s).

    hummm, now where did i put my blank card stock...

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member OC Freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Another option would be a business card handed to the officer that states "I am a lawfully armed citizen". May also want to include "I do not consent to any search and seizure" and "This interaction is being recorded". If you have an attorney, he/she name could be on the flip side.

    Again do not use the word gun on the card.
    excellent idea.

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    hurray OC4ME, you used the same NC AG opinion based document for your response to me that you chided me about...nice touch.
    fair enough...

    tho please indulge a question...when NC municipalities, DA & their legal staff, sheriffs, Chief's of Police, etc., have a legal query about interpretation of NC statutes, whom do they ask for guidance?

    sorry, but a follow-up comes to mind...to respond to the interpretation requested the NC AG & their staff generate an 'opinion' based on their knowledge of statutes, case studies, political mood at the time, etc., on the subject...not validating the morality of doing so but can these 'opinions' be used by the county DA(s) to run a NC citizen through the judicial system and cause havoc on the NC citizen defending themselves (reads $$$)from this ambiguous opinion not based on statute?

    I have steadfastly stated i do not wish to draw attention to myself thus possibility mitigating and precluding having to defend myself from the witch hunts precipitated by an over zealous peace officer because he believes their safety is in jeopardy.

    ipse

    addendum: thanks WW i keep forgetting to mention the other NC DOJ mantra that is taught to NC peace officer trainees. Citizens are taught in their CHP courses to keep their hands you hands on the steering wheels, etc.
    Am I misreading this? I understand the AG says it's imperative to notify, but I don't see how that makes it illegal not to.

    I understand where you're coming from with your lockbox, but nothing I've read says that the way I do it is breaking the law.

    Also since I don't have a permit, the LEO wouldn't even know to check that I was armed, and he wouldn't see it unless he went to the other side and my console was up.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

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  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Am I misreading this? I understand the AG says it's imperative to notify, but I don't see how that makes it illegal not to.

    I understand where you're coming from with your lockbox, but nothing I've read says that the way I do it is breaking the law.

    Also since I don't have a permit, the LEO wouldn't even know to check that I was armed, and he wouldn't see it unless he went to the other side and my console was up.
    The absence of a cite, requested by me of solus, to law reveals that your post strikes the heart of my point.

    +1
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    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  20. #20
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron73440 View Post
    Am I misreading this? I understand the AG says it's imperative to notify, but I don't see how that makes it illegal not to.
    I understand where you're coming from with your lockbox, but nothing I've read says that the way I do it is breaking the law.

    Also since I don't have a permit, the LEO wouldn't even know to check that I was armed, and he wouldn't see it unless he went to the other side and my console was up.
    Ron, you are operating under the presumption the LEO's stop would be routine and the LE isn't going to ask you to step out for whatever their pretense, which is within their purview w/o RAS explained...far fetched and maybe i am projecting, nawllll ~ stranger things have occurred as evidenced in Fl recently. the ensuing discussion between you two i am sure would be quite tense and possibly lead to you having to defend yourself in a judicial environment as you will remember the LE on the scene has complete authority and your defence is made in front of the judge.

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

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    Regular Member ron73440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    Ron, you are operating under the presumption the LEO's stop would be routine and the LE isn't going to ask you to step out for whatever their pretense, which is within their purview w/o RAS explained...far fetched and maybe i am projecting, nawllll ~ stranger things have occurred as evidenced in Fl recently. the ensuing discussion between you two i am sure would be quite tense and possibly lead to you having to defend yourself in a judicial environment as you will remember the LE on the scene has complete authority and your defence is made in front of the judge.

    ipse
    So far, no problems, I've even started to drive slower to avoid interactions(not to mention the stupid fines), but if I do get an idiot, that's why I carry a recorder.

    I figure you have the same chance of anything happening while you get a ticket as there is in public OC'ing.
    What I told my wife when she said my steel Baby Eagle .45 was heavy, "Heavy is good, heavy is reliable, if it doesn't work you could always hit him with it."-Boris the Blade

    MOLON LABE

  22. #22
    Regular Member solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The absence of a cite, requested by me of solus, to law reveals that your post strikes the heart of my point.

    +1
    i'm sorry, OC4ME, re-read'g your posts on this thread i fail to see anything remotely stating...yo solus, can you provide me with a cite?

    in the interests of fair play could you show me where you specifically said provide me with a cite?

    thanks

    ipse
    I'm only human; I do what I can; I'm just a man; I do what I can; Don't put the blame on me; Don't put your blame on me ~ Rag'n'Bone Man.

    Please do not get confused between my personality & my attitude. My personality is who I am ~ my attitude depends on who you are and how you act.

    Remember always, do not judge someone because they sin differently than you do!

    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I am at a loss, Sir, ... Again, taking you at your word, is there or is there not a requirement in the law to inform? ...
    Quote Originally Posted by solus View Post
    i'm sorry, OC4ME, re-read'g your posts on this thread i fail to see anything remotely stating...yo solus, can you provide me with a cite?

    in the interests of fair play could you show me where you specifically said provide me with a cite?

    thanks

    ipse
    Granted, I did not use the term "cite." If this omission relieves you, in your view, of the forum rule burden, I respectfully withdraw the request.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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