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Thread: COMMONWEALTH vs. JASON DOUGLAS Pat Frisk of Vehicle

  1. #1
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    COMMONWEALTH vs. JASON DOUGLAS Pat Frisk of Vehicle

    "CYPHER, J. This is an appeal by the Commonwealth after a
    single justice of the Supreme Judicial Court allowed the
    Commonwealth's petition under Mass.R.Crim.P. 15, as appearing in
    422 Mass. 1501 (1996). In ruling on the defendants' motions to
    suppress, a judge in the Superior Court held that the seizure by
    police officers of a firearm found under a passenger's seat
    during a "patfrisk" of the interior of a motor vehicle was
    impermissible because, although the stop of the vehicle was
    justified, the police had exceeded the permissible scope of the
    search when they looked under the passenger's seat before the
    occupants returned to the vehicle. Specifically, the judge
    reasoned that "[a]ny suspicion which might have been prompted by
    any movement (or lack thereof) by the car's occupants was
    dispelled by the removal and pat frisk of each individual's
    person."
    3 We reverse the order allowing the motions to suppress."

    http://www.mass.gov/courts/docs/sjc/...ns/12p1992.pdf

    Basically, 4 gang members are in a vehicle making movements, acting funny. Some of the guys are known to the detectives for either carrying firearms or being involved in violence/drugs. Vehicle is stopped for no blinker. Occupants are ordered to exit and pat frisked. Pat frisk of them reveals nothing. Pat frisk of car finds revolver.

    Defense says "wait you can't pat frisk the car if you don't find anything on my client". Negative my friend. The point of a pat frisk is to stop them from sitting back in car and shooting you in face or someone else.

    Note: above is very SHORT synopsis. Read the case for a really good example of what RAS is and how it works/ is built. The defendant's motions, what he says, how well he's known, his movements before they got in the car, who was with, what the group was doing prior, there being current rival gang tensions, ALL build RAS needed.

    This is not an example of OC, but it's certainly an example of how every little detail can be used to build RAS and extremely fast.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    What terrible after-the-fact justification of an illegal search.
    After looking at the criteria for RAS in this case you might as well answer the question of why it was okay to conduct the search with:
    F*ck you that's why!
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    What terrible after-the-fact justification of an illegal search.
    After looking at the criteria for RAS in this case you might as well answer the question of why it was okay to conduct the search with:
    F*ck you that's why!
    You might want to check your fury at the hatstand and read up on case law about this. Without actually putting my brain in gear: "furtive movements" is RAS to search the car after taking the occupants outside and cuffing them "for your safety and mine".

    And since there is so much case law on the subject, "F*ck you that's why" is a fair reason.

    Just for the record - I am not a cop supporter and I am never going to be pleased with actions that push the envelope on 4A searches. As far as I'm concerned that boundary is as inflexible as a sheet of cheap plate glass, as opposed to being like a soap bubble that can take quite a bit of prodding into before it breaks.

    Which explains why I spend so much time and energy trying to get bad case law fixed through the legislature.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    RAS is unconstitutional. PC is.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  5. #5
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    ...

    This is not an example of OC, but it's certainly an example of how every little detail can be used to build RAS and extremely fast.
    People of the Commonwealth got the shaft on this one.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You might want to check your fury at the hatstand and read up on case law about this. Without actually putting my brain in gear: "furtive movements" is RAS to search the car after taking the occupants outside and cuffing them "for your safety and mine".

    And since there is so much case law on the subject, "F*ck you that's why" is a fair reason.

    Just for the record - I am not a cop supporter and I am never going to be pleased with actions that push the envelope on 4A searches. As far as I'm concerned that boundary is as inflexible as a sheet of cheap plate glass, as opposed to being like a soap bubble that can take quite a bit of prodding into before it breaks.

    Which explains why I spend so much time and energy trying to get bad case law fixed through the legislature.

    stay safe.
    My fury warms heart. I'll wear it as long as I can thank you. And though "F*ck you that's why" reasoning may be given a smile and nod by a judge it does not make it right IMO.
    The 4A is a joke when corrupt authoritarians decide what is an "unreasonable" search.

    Just for the record the time and energy you expend to fight bad case law through legislature is honorable. I salute you.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

  7. #7
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    I'll have to copy and paste the entire paragraph of RAS. It was much more then just "furitive movement".
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    We get a example of the bad guys getting away with it and then there is this.
    A Florida woman is free to eat pasta in her car once again after serving a month in jail because cops confused a crusty spoon in her possession with SpaghettiO's residue as being the drug methamphetamine.

    Ashley Gabrielle Huff, 23, was arrested on July 2 by the Gainesville police department after they suspected her of having meth residue on a spoon in her car that she hard pressed was SpaghettiO's residue.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...idue-meth.html
    Don't know what to say at this point regarding the concocting of RAS.

    That too much liberty thing keeps popping into my head every time I read a story where the cop(s) go one way and logic/common sense goes the other way. But hey, no harm no foul if she gets a payday fro nitwit cops...right? I mean, how much can a 23 y/o have lost after a month in jail, she is only 23 with the rest of her life ahead of her.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  9. #9
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    We get a example of the bad guys getting away with it and then there is this.Don't know what to say at this point regarding the concocting of RAS.

    That too much liberty thing keeps popping into my head every time I read a story where the cop(s) go one way and logic/common sense goes the other way. But hey, no harm no foul if she gets a payday fro nitwit cops...right? I mean, how much can a 23 y/o have lost after a month in jail, she is only 23 with the rest of her life ahead of her.
    Cool story bro.

    Not gun related. Not in the same state. Not even a detailed example of RAS. Just a news story about cops.

    Think that's called.... Trolling?
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  10. #10
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Cool story bro.

    Not gun related. Not in the same state. Not even a detailed example of RAS. Just a news story about cops.

    Think that's called.... Trolling?
    Your OP was about how RAS is developed.
    This is not an example of OC, but it's certainly an example of how every little detail can be used to build RAS and extremely fast.
    Tomato sauce residue was all the RAS that cop needed.

    By the way, I did agree that the judge got it wrong due to all of the little things. The story I posted only had one little thing.

    Keep trying though.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  11. #11
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Defense says "wait you can't pat frisk the car if you don't find anything on my client". Negative my friend. The point of a pat frisk is to stop them from sitting back in car and shooting you in face or someone else.
    Now allowing them back in the car, or securing them in another car would have done the same thing... except it wouldn't have allowed the nice officers a freebie to do the search they so much wanted to do.

    Ain't it a shame when the common folks can see through such transparent lies so easily?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Now allowing them back in the car, or securing them in another car would have done the same thing... except it wouldn't have allowed the nice officers a freebie to do the search they so much wanted to do.

    Ain't it a shame when the common folks can see through such transparent lies so easily?
    Not allowing them? Ever?

    This stop is the epitome of the point of a pat frisk.

    Violent gang members. Out after/during an incident. Current violence between groups. Check car based on shady actions. Gun found.

    You HAVE to let them in car. Preferable as soon as possible. So a quick and limited check of a certain area for safety. That's all, no more no less.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Now allowing them back in the car, or securing them in another car would have done the same thing... except it wouldn't have allowed the nice officers a freebie to do the search they so much wanted to do.

    Ain't it a shame when the common folks can see through such transparent lies so easily?
    Not ordering them out of the car in the first place and just giving them a ticket for the illegal turn without signalling was the proper action. Of course that was just an excuse. They were following him fishing for a reason to put him in jail.
    The justification for the 4A violation is pathetic. He was sitting at an angle in his seat. He was quieter than I remember him being. He didn't make enough eye contact. It's utter hog wash.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Primus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Not ordering them out of the car in the first place and just giving them a ticket for the illegal turn without signalling was the proper action. Of course that was just an excuse. They were following him fishing for a reason to put him in jail.
    The justification for the 4A violation is pathetic. He was sitting at an angle in his seat. He was quieter than I remember him being. He didn't make enough eye contact. It's utter hog wash.
    Let's see... They had RAS they had a gun..... And they had a...... Gun.

    This is the point of RAS. To make the officer work to do any searches. Its a restriction on them. Well they worked to the standard and found what they thought was there.

    You can hate it and complain but its reality. There is restriction on the officers and they stayed within it and still got the job done.
    "The wicked flee when no man persueth: but the righteous are as bold as a lion" Proverbs 28:1

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Not allowing them? Ever?
    No, you aren't that dumb; so stop playin', Homes.

    This stop is the epitome of the point of a pat frisk.

    Violent gang members. Out after/during an incident. Current violence between groups. Check car based on shady actions. Gun found.

    You HAVE to let them in car. Preferable as soon as possible. So a quick and limited check of a certain area for safety. That's all, no more no less.
    Yes, you HAVE to let them in the car... after the purpose of the stop was achieved.

    Was the purpose to issue a traffic citation or was the citation merely a pretext to accomplish a search that otherwise could not have been done?



    Officers in Commerce, Georgia developed Reasonable Articulable Suspicion that a spoon a woman had in her car had meth residue.
    Officers developed Probable Cause to arrest her.


    Turns out the 'residue' was dried Spaghetti O's. That's what BS police work with BS suspicion leads to.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-01-2014 at 10:44 PM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primus View Post
    Let's see... They had RAS they had a gun..... And they had a...... Gun.

    This is the point of RAS. To make the officer work to do any searches. Its a restriction on them. Well they worked to the standard and found what they thought was there.

    You can hate it and complain but its reality. There is restriction on the officers and they stayed within it and still got the job done.
    They found the gun after a wrongful search.

    Why do you keep bringing it up? OH wait as a rationalization for illegal actions by your buddies?

    This is why Terry is a horrible decision, people who don't understand liberty or rights and want to infringe upon them use the invented terms by such decisions for the rationalization of their unconstitutional acts.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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