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Thread: Law Regarding Purchase Permit?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Question Law Regarding Purchase Permit?

    I've tried google and can't really find anything regarding a timeframe. My friend applied for his purchase permit in Dearborn two days ago, they keep telling him it's under "review" and pending their "decision" because he was arrested in 09..but he wasn't convicted and it was his only arrest.

    Apparently when he tried to tell them they can't legally deny him a permit they told him that they never said they were denying it, but they have have to run an extensive background check that could take up to one month to complete and issue his permit.

    Is this legal? I've never heard of this before. I got mine in Northville in about 5 minutes. Dearborn tried to do the same thing to my boss but he called his lawyer and they issued the permit a few days after he replied.

    If this question has been answered before, I do apologize!
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  2. #2
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 28.422, Sec. 2

    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    Emphasis mine.

    If they aren't denying it for a specific reason, they are obligated to issue the permit with due speed and diligence. In other words, as quickly as is reasonably possible.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    If they aren't denying it for a specific reason, they are obligated to issue the permit with due speed and diligence. In other words, as quickly as is reasonably possible.
    Also... is he purchasing from an individual or a dealer?

  4. #4
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Also... is he purchasing from an individual or a dealer?
    Individual, if he was purchasing from a dealer he wouldn't need to go to the police station.
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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    Individual, if he was purchasing from a dealer he wouldn't need to go to the police station.
    Yep, thats why I was asking.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    They are doing a fairly straightforward violation of state law, as explained above. First complain to the chief, if he won't straighten out the department policy complain to the city council. If that doesn't work file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. This was the advice we got from Dean Greenblatt and also the AG's office themselves.

    Don't forget to be good and wired when interacting with police in general but especially for these types of situations. Video from a spy cam and audio from a call recorder app to go with the written complaint is what you want to provide to the AG if it comes to that.
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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    They are doing a fairly straightforward violation of state law, as explained above. First complain to the chief, if he won't straighten out the department policy complain to the city council. If that doesn't work file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. This was the advice we got from Dean Greenblatt and also the AG's office themselves.

    Don't forget to be good and wired when interacting with police in general but especially for these types of situations. Video from a spy cam and audio from a call recorder app to go with the written complaint is what you want to provide to the AG if it comes to that.
    We did exactly this with another local PD and it did the trick. If you would like some more details about what approach we took PM me or Michigander.

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    Tell your fiend to just build his own gun ... stop all the BR chk BS...
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-03-2014 at 05:59 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Law Regarding Purchase Permit?

    Mike - there is no penalty for non-issue (limbo) BS. That's why MI LEA's do this crap. The way around this (thankfully there is a way now). Is have the seller do a transfer via a FFL & the buyer immediately fills out a 4473 and once NICS clears he takes possession of the firearm. It will add to the cost but it will save him time which is valuable to most.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-04-2014 at 01:03 AM.
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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    They are doing a fairly straightforward violation of state law, as explained above. First complain to the chief, if he won't straighten out the department policy complain to the city council. If that doesn't work file a complaint with the Attorney General's office. This was the advice we got from Dean Greenblatt and also the AG's office themselves.

    Don't forget to be good and wired when interacting with police in general but especially for these types of situations. Video from a spy cam and audio from a call recorder app to go with the written complaint is what you want to provide to the AG if it comes to that.
    He talked to the supervisor yesterday before they closed, I guess his exact words were "I'm not an idiot, I know the state law, which you're violating, and I'll call my lawyer if I have to." Apparently after that the supervisor started telling him not to worry and he'd try and see what he can do about speeding up the process this morning when he gets into work.

    It amazes me how they can just knowingly mess with people and delay their permits for no reason...Jesus. I'm so glad I have my CPL, I always prefer buying guns off of people like friends, or usually Armslist, and although Northville Township PD gives permits in under 20 minutes, It's such a pain in the ass.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Mike - there is no penalty for non-issue (limbo) BS. That's why MI LEA's do this crap. The way around this (thankfully there is a way now). Is have the seller do a transfer via a FFL & the buyer immediately fills out a 4473 and once NICS clears he takes possession of the firearm. It will add to the cost but it will save him time which is valuable to most.
    This is true, although the only gun store around my work, and where he lives is Center Mass...which charges $75 for a transfer. Screw that nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    This is true, although the only gun store around my work, and where he lives is Center Mass...which charges $75 for a transfer. Screw that nonsense.
    This is just my opinion, but the police might be waiting to hear back from the court to ensure this "arrest" aka charge is still not pending or a plea under advisement. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there that have charges still pending or under advisement and are trying to circumvent the legal system. Had he not had an arrest on his record he would have likely had the permit issued in a timely manner.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    This is just my opinion, but the police might be waiting to hear back from the court to ensure this "arrest" aka charge is still not pending or a plea under advisement. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there that have charges still pending or under advisement and are trying to circumvent the legal system. Had he not had an arrest on his record he would have likely had the permit issued in a timely manner.
    BULL! Anyone can be arrested for anything... until one is convicted are not they supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty"? Detroit Police for example took it much farther telling people who had unpaid parking tickets that until they paid them they could not have a pistol purchase permit? So let me get this straight, you let your: [insert person] borrow your car, they get a parking ticket & for whatever reason they don't tell the owner...now the owner of the car has lost their right to self defense? NONSENSE!

    We have tens of thousands of gun laws on the books. One of them is regarding people with felonies & some misdemeanor convictions cannot have firearms. So police can simply wait to see if a conviction occurs, THEN the person turns in the firearm or they face additional charges is how its supposed to go. Believe it or not, not everyone who is charged with something is guilty. Also, it can take years to get a chance to be judged by one's peers, so someone who could very well be falsely charged cannot defend themselves? If we are a "guilty until proven innocent" society, why even bother with Juries? Simply let police decide who goes to jail, who lives and who dies for what they deem to be a mild to severe offenses. Contempt of cop = automatic death sentence! Jay walking = flesh wound + 90 days in Jail & $5,000 in fines. Just saying - be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. There are studies that show the average citizen violates the law on a daily basis in some form or another, so they all should be presumed guilty and lose their rights?
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-11-2014 at 09:12 PM. Reason: typo
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  14. #14
    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    He got his permit, the next morning after he told them if it wasn't in his hands by noon that day he'd call his lawyer. As stupid as that sounds it actually worked...lol. He's a happy man now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    BULL! Anyone can be arrested for anything... until one is convicted are not they supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty"? Detroit Police for example took it much farther telling people who had unpaid parking tickets that until they paid them they could not have a pistol purchase permit? So let me get this straight, you let your: [insert person] borrow your car, they get a parking ticket & for whatever reason they don't tell the owner...now the owner of the car has lost their right to self defense? NONSENSE!

    We have tens of thousands of gun laws on the books. One of them is regarding people with felonies & some misdemeanor convictions cannot have firearms. So police can simply wait to see if a conviction occurs, THEN the person turns in the firearm or they face additional charges is how its supposed to go. Believe it or not, not everyone who is charged with something is guilty. Also, it can take years to get a chance to be judged by one's peers, so someone who could very well be falsely charged cannot defend themselves? If we are a "guilty until proven innocent" society, why even bother with Juries? Simply let police decide who goes to jail, who lives and who dies for what they deem to be a mild to severe offenses. Contempt of cop = automatic death sentence! Jay walking = flesh wound + 90 days in Jail & $5,000 in fines. Just saying - be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. There are studies that show the average citizen violates the law on a daily basis in some form or another, so they all should be presumed guilty and lose their rights?
    Agreed.....anybody can be arrested, sometimes wrongfully. I wasn't trying to start a debate on that fact. I was simply pointing out that if an arrest was showing up, the PD might have been trying to error on the side of caution. As far as parking tickets go, in MICHIGAN they are a civil infraction, not a criminal offense. Detroit Police are a joke and not a department that could ever be taken seriously. Unfortunately because of their hiring standards and all the corruption in the city, this kind of nonsense could happen there. Most other police departments are at least educated enough to understand that civil infractions don't apply to permits to purchase.

    Please note that the OP never stated Detroit PD or Civil Infraction....matter of fact he never stated the arrest was a Civil Infraction.

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Law Regarding Purchase Permit?

    Bud- I was using DPD of an example of why local police should not have the power they do in MI. Thankfully your legislation took away most of that a while back by making it unnecessary for buyers of s new pistol to get the permit 1st, then go to their dealer. Now the FFL handles the check, which NICS is less likely to screw over people than the local yahoo's IMHO. Private sales should not require a permit to buy. They don't in most states, yet somehow the politicians & police in MI assume everyone is a criminal? They say it stops gun crime...there...huh??? Anyone been to Flint or Detroit lately (outside of the "Dan Gilbert" zone) that is?
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2014 at 02:56 PM.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Law Regarding Purchase Permit?

    @ Mike - your friend is lucky they didn't call his bluff. It very well may have cost him another $1,000 in legal fees to get his permit if he didn't know how to file the court paperwork himself. That's what PD's that do this crap hope for, 95+% of the people they put in "limbo" just give up. It's a win for the corrupt local PD's no matter how it goes. They end up costing the applicant time & money, which seems to be their objective. This is monetary opinion enforcement - rather than law enforcement as I see it. Your friend may have just rubbed someone there the wrong way. He may have just been the winner of the let's "F" with this person game that some PD's play? Who knows? The real question is why are their no real penalties for the PD's that do this BULL? That's the question IMHO.

    Glad he got it. Sad he had to go through the nonsense he did to get something he shouldn't be required to obtain in the first place.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 10-12-2014 at 03:59 PM.
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    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Regular Member topgun47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    If they aren't denying it for a specific reason, they are obligated to issue the permit with due speed and diligence. In other words, as quickly as is reasonably possible.


    My take on that verbiage is "As soon as they are good and ready".

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