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Thread: Anti RKBA instructor.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Anti RKBA instructor.

    Had an interesting experience this morning. I decided to take my 14 yr old son to the Boulder Rifle and Pistol Club for their junior program. The goal being to teach youngsters safety, shooting, and how to care for your firearms. No fee. All firearms and ammo provided.

    When I arrived there I pulled up in front of the trailer where the class is held and as I was getting out of my car, the instructor who later identified himself as "Paul", told me that "HE" did not allow any handguns but his. I said that I thought this was a gun club. He said it is. I told him I thought it should be all about the RKBA and freedom. He said he strongly believes in that. I said, "What you just said indicates that you don't." He told me that he didn't train me, he doesn't know what my abilities are. I told him that I didn't know him or know what his abilities are. He answered, "no you don't." The conversation went on a bit longer but the bottom line is I told my son, in front of Paul, that I would not let him be instructed by someone with his lack of regard for our freedoms, that I was afraid of what he would be taught.

    People like Paul are why we have lost so much ground regarding our freedoms in this country. He has a very elitist attitude in that he believes in the right to bear arms, but only if he approves of you. If you are not one of his crowd those rights do not extend to you. He puts qualifiers on the Constitutions of the U.S. and NV. He is a prime example of the book Animal Farm. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Guess that makes Paul one of the pigs. (If you have never read Animal Farm, you should."

    It's bad enough that we have to fight with the anti crowd, but it is just plain insane that we have to fight those who are supposed to be on our side. I will be writing to the club to see if they are standing behind him or not. At that time I will make a decision on whether to continue my long standing membership.

    TBG
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Hiding behind "liability" is just more security drama. Wonder what he might have said if you had whipped out one of his signed training certificates with your name on it.

    Actually, no I do not wonder. Met his identical twin brother/cousin several years ago at a pin shoot. I was told that my training was "out of date" because I had not done yearly re-training with him. As if I ever plan to spend money taking the same class every year, as opposed to looking for training that takes me to the next step in proficiency.

    By "discussing" it at sufficient volume the other student candidates overheard and staged a mini-revolution. Get with the program or start issuing refunds on the spot. The mere thought of all those $$ floating away must have been powerful enough to get him to agree to drop back to the proposal that we all agree to "No handling of guns behind the firing line."

    Please speak to the gun club administration. If they regularly allow members/guests to remain armed then they need to inform any "guest" instructors that the same is expected of them.

    stay safe.
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    I would have told him "thanks for sharing your views with me"..ignored him and went to the training session (you could correct anything he said that was wrong in the class).... he's going to do what? Call the cops? And I doubt he would call the cops. He does not have the authority to say "no guns"...
    Last edited by davidmcbeth; 10-04-2014 at 03:13 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would have told him "thanks for sharing your views with me"..ignored him and went to the training session (you could correct anything he said that was wrong in the class).... he's going to do what? Call the cops? And I doubt he would call the cops. He does not have the authority to say "no guns"...
    Cite please. The club is private property.
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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    "Animal farm" is one of my favorites

    But IMO, anti gun gun people are the biggest hypocrites there are
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    TBG are you saying that he was bothered by the mere FACT that you were carrying? Or were you going to be somehow participating in the shooting or training so he was concerned about how you'd be handling your weapon while on site? It sounds like you're implying that he was implying that he simply didn't want you armed on site, for any purpose. Is that the case?

    OMG did he somehow assume that your weapon was going to take on a life of its own and jump out of that holster and into your hand while you were observing your son's training?

    Elitist indeed, as well as teaching a paranoia toward firearms when carried by others who are not within your personal scope of knowledge. Not a guy I'd want teaching at my gun range...
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    [ ... ] He is a prime example of the book Animal Farm. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Guess that makes Paul one of the pigs. (If you have never read Animal Farm, you should." [ ... ]
    And Nineteen Eighty-Four, also written by George Orwell whose real name was Eric Arthur Blair, the socialist democrat and Imperial Policeman in Indian Burma.

    It is the face of a man of about forty, with a small beard and a high colour. He is laughing, with a touch of anger in his laughter, but no triumph, no malignity. It is the face of a man who is always fighting against something, but who fights in the open and is not frightened, the face of a man who is generously angry—in other words, of a nineteenth-century liberal, a free intelligence, a type hated with equal hatred by all the smelly little orthodoxies which are now contending for our souls.(George Woodcock in Stephen Wadhams Remembering Orwell (Penguin 1984))
    Last edited by Nightmare; 10-05-2014 at 08:41 AM.
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron_O View Post
    TBG are you saying that he was bothered by the mere FACT that you were carrying? Or were you going to be somehow participating in the shooting or training so he was concerned about how you'd be handling your weapon while on site? It sounds like you're implying that he was implying that he simply didn't want you armed on site, for any purpose. Is that the case?

    OMG did he somehow assume that your weapon was going to take on a life of its own and jump out of that holster and into your hand while you were observing your son's training?

    Elitist indeed, as well as teaching a paranoia toward firearms when carried by others who are not within your personal scope of knowledge. Not a guy I'd want teaching at my gun range...
    He was bothered by the fact I was armed. I was not participating in the training at all. At least one parent is required to be there with the child.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please. The club is private property.
    The instructor does not make policy...it appears from the orig post that he was not asked to leave but did so on his own

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would have told him "thanks for sharing your views with me"..ignored him and went to the training session (you could correct anything he said that was wrong in the class).... he's going to do what? Call the cops? And I doubt he would call the cops. He does not have the authority to say "no guns"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please. The club is private property.
    The great and powerful McBeth does not need to provide a cite. His word is magic and his powers are above those of mortal men...
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Actually, I don't disagree with his rule that people entering his class do not bring firearms into the classroom area. Why not stash your gear at the door?

    I've no doubt he's met his share of yahoos who think they know it all and think nothing of fiddling with their piece while he's doing training. Our instructor would allow nobody to handle any firearms though he didn't frisk us.

    Since the trainer is responsible and people coming to the class are by default 'in need of training' he deserves to have his wishes followed. Put yourself in his place; you look up and someone in the back is playing with their gun while he's talking. Yikes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Actually, I don't disagree with his rule that people entering his class do not bring firearms into the classroom area. Why not stash your gear at the door?

    I've no doubt he's met his share of yahoos who think they know it all and think nothing of fiddling with their piece while he's doing training. Our instructor would allow nobody to handle any firearms though he didn't frisk us.

    Since the trainer is responsible and people coming to the class are by default 'in need of training' he deserves to have his wishes followed. Put yourself in his place; you look up and someone in the back is playing with their gun while he's talking. Yikes!
    That sounds like a typical answer from a anti gun group. You know the old why do you need a gun in here question. Why should the BigGuy carry on wal mart or any other place? He might play with his gun.

    Your response is the most ignorant response I have read in a long time. The BigGuy was not in the class for training. His child was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Actually, I don't disagree with his rule that people entering his class do not bring firearms into the classroom area. Why not stash your gear at the door?

    I've no doubt he's met his share of yahoos who think they know it all and think nothing of fiddling with their piece while he's doing training. Our instructor would allow nobody to handle any firearms though he didn't frisk us.

    Since the trainer is responsible and people coming to the class are by default 'in need of training' he deserves to have his wishes followed. Put yourself in his place; you look up and someone in the back is playing with their gun while he's talking. Yikes!
    Spoken like a true butter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The great and powerful McBeth does not need to provide a cite. His word is magic and his powers are above those of mortal men...
    There is nothing to cite ... I did not reference anything that needs citing.

    But I appreciate your post, at least one person acknowledges my infallibility. This is how the Pope must feel....

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    There is nothing to cite ... I did not reference anything that needs citing.

    But I appreciate your post, at least one person acknowledges my infallibility. This is how the Pope must feel....
    Yes, you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would have told him "thanks for sharing your views with me"..ignored him and went to the training session (you could correct anything he said that was wrong in the class).... he's going to do what? Call the cops? And I doubt he would call the cops. He does not have the authority to say "no guns"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please. The club is private property.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick9 View Post
    Actually, I don't disagree with his rule that people entering his class do not bring firearms into the classroom area. Why not stash your gear at the door?

    I've no doubt he's met his share of yahoos who think they know it all and think nothing of fiddling with their piece while he's doing training. Our instructor would allow nobody to handle any firearms though he didn't frisk us.

    Since the trainer is responsible and people coming to the class are by default 'in need of training' he deserves to have his wishes followed. Put yourself in his place; you look up and someone in the back is playing with their gun while he's talking. Yikes!
    You should not be allowed to express your opinions on this topic as I don't know what your experience level is concerning this issue. I fully believe in the right of free speech, but I personally need to train you first on how to do it.

    TBG
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    Regular Member Ron_O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    He was bothered by the fact I was armed. I was not participating in the training at all. At least one parent is required to be there with the child.

    TBG
    Sounds like he thinks guns are evil and until he's personally taught someone how to handle the evil serpent he's not going to allow you to be around him. Apparently he feels that a person with a gun who's AROUND guns will have no self-control. He see's anyone who's not in his circle of approval as his enemy, a potential threat. Very paranoid behavior, irresponsible, and setting a terrible example for his students. He should rather welcome you there, tell your son that he's lucky to have a father who's setting a terrific example, and assure your son that his father has his own best interests in mind by taking him to the course.

    VERY paranoid behavior. God forbid that he should run into you in Walmart somewhere, where you're both on equal footing. Surely he'll find himself moving to the other side of the building or sizing you up to determine whether he could out-gun you should the need present itself. If I see someone OC'ing I shake their hand with a smile, not run them off.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    You should not be allowed to express your opinions on this topic as I don't know what your experience level is concerning this issue. I fully believe in the right of free speech, but I personally need to train you first on how to do it.

    TBG
    Excellent example and parallel.
    Last edited by Ron_O; 10-06-2014 at 01:16 AM.
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    Regular Member cjohnson44546's Avatar
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    many places of gun instruction do not allow loaded weapons or live ammo, or weapons at all in the instruction area. This is a safety precaution, because people are apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire or anything else and accidents and negligence happens.

    If you were not involved in the class, and were outside of the class... I don't see the point in the restriction though... but we do only have one side of the story.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjohnson44546 View Post
    many places of gun instruction do not allow loaded weapons or live ammo, or weapons at all in the instruction area. This is a safety precaution, because people are apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire or anything else and accidents and negligence happens.

    If you were not involved in the class, and were outside of the class... I don't see the point in the restriction though... but we do only have one side of the story.
    You either believe in the RKBA, or you don't. By your logic, no one should be allowed to carry anywhere because they are "apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire them or anything else."

    By your choice of words you indicate that you believe the average person does not have the native intelligence to be allowed to carry a firearm, a very elitist attitude.

    TBG
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-06-2014 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Format quote
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    Regular Member Maverick9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    That sounds like a typical answer from a anti gun group. You know the old why do you need a gun in here question. Why should the BigGuy carry on wal mart or any other place? He might play with his gun.

    Your response is the most ignorant response I have read in a long time. The BigGuy was not in the class for training. His child was.
    I'm assuming that the people in the class were newbies. I stand corrected on TBG not being in the class for training. He should not have been questioned on his carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    You either believe in the RKBA, or you don't. By your logic, no one should be allowed to carry anywhere because they are "apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire them or anything else."

    By your choice of words you indicate that you believe the average person does not have the native intelligence to be allowed to carry a firearm, a very elitist attitude.

    TBG
    I do not read any of that in his post. His comment has nothing to do with some random person being 'apt to pull out their guns and look at them and dry fire them or anything else,' it is about how persons, especially new gun owners are more likely to act during the course of instruction.


    For those in the class, I can fully understand the restriction on any student having a loaded firearm unless they are in actual range time. Those not IN class, and students before/after class, let them be armed without questioning them.


    That isn't about RKBA, it is about behavior during a course of instruction.
    Last edited by wrightme; 10-06-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Every class I have attended and every class I have taught, begins with verifying that there is NO live ammunition on the classroom and, if the student brought in their own firearm, that the firearm was cleared. This is not only an NRA dictate, it just makes common sense. Students have varying degrees of experience -- that's why they are in the classroom, to improve -- and it is up to the instructor to verify that the classroom is safe.

    I was in a Defensive Pistol class not long ago, where all of the students brought in their own firearm. The instructor insured that there was no live ammo in the room and that all of the pistols were cleared before he started class. Even so, one of the students was dismissed because she seemingly could not keep from sweeping other students while handling her firearm. Rule 1.

    The last thing we need is adverse publicity about a student or instructor in a classroom setting being injured by careless handling of a loaded firearm.
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    it is about how persons, especially new gun owners are more likely to act during the course of instruction.
    Wow!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    You either believe in the RKBA, or you don't. By your logic, no one should be allowed to carry anywhere because they are "apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire them or anything else."

    By your choice of words you indicate that you believe the average person does not have the native intelligence to be allowed to carry a firearm, a very elitist attitude.

    TBG
    As Wrightme has stated... there is a difference when you are teaching someone about a gun, gun safety, and how to use it, or similar gun related topics. People are not apt to pull their guns out for no reason... in a classroom setting about guns they actually have a valid reason. Learning about guns, they are apt to want to look at a gun, and sometimes even required to be looking at training guns, their own guns, etc... depending on the situation.

    I'd like to see you teach a class to a bunch of people who barely know how a gun works, or even how to hold it or load it properly... and they all have guns and live ammo they are playing with, and think its ok, because its their right. Do you think its wrong also in a class on the range, when someone is downrange they require all guns to remain holstered, or they kick you out? People have RKBA, they aren't stupid enough to actually shoot down range when someone is down there right... why require them to stay holstered?

    My whole point is.. there are special considerations to gun safety that have to be taken into consideration during gun training processes. I also noted his idea of disarming everyone, in the class or not, may be over the top, depending on the situation and area.

  25. #25
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Every class I have attended and every class I have taught, begins with verifying that there is NO live ammunition on the classroom and, if the student brought in their own firearm, that the firearm was cleared. This is not only an NRA dictate, it just makes common sense. Students have varying degrees of experience -- that's why they are in the classroom, to improve -- and it is up to the instructor to verify that the classroom is safe.

    I was in a Defensive Pistol class not long ago, where all of the students brought in their own firearm. The instructor insured that there was no live ammo in the room and that all of the pistols were cleared before he started class. Even so, one of the students was dismissed because she seemingly could not keep from sweeping other students while handling her firearm. Rule 1.

    The last thing we need is adverse publicity about a student or instructor in a classroom setting being injured by careless handling of a loaded firearm.
    Nothing about what you have said has any bearing on this instance.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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