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Anti RKBA instructor.

JamesCanby

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Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
Every class I have attended and every class I have taught, begins with verifying that there is NO live ammunition on the classroom and, if the student brought in their own firearm, that the firearm was cleared. This is not only an NRA dictate, it just makes common sense. Students have varying degrees of experience -- that's why they are in the classroom, to improve -- and it is up to the instructor to verify that the classroom is safe.

I was in a Defensive Pistol class not long ago, where all of the students brought in their own firearm. The instructor insured that there was no live ammo in the room and that all of the pistols were cleared before he started class. Even so, one of the students was dismissed because she seemingly could not keep from sweeping other students while handling her firearm. Rule 1.

The last thing we need is adverse publicity about a student or instructor in a classroom setting being injured by careless handling of a loaded firearm.
 

cjohnson44546

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Messages
188
Location
Memphis, TN
You either believe in the RKBA, or you don't. By your logic, no one should be allowed to carry anywhere because they are "apt to pull out their guns and look at them and 'dry' fire them or anything else."

By your choice of words you indicate that you believe the average person does not have the native intelligence to be allowed to carry a firearm, a very elitist attitude.

TBG

As Wrightme has stated... there is a difference when you are teaching someone about a gun, gun safety, and how to use it, or similar gun related topics. People are not apt to pull their guns out for no reason... in a classroom setting about guns they actually have a valid reason. Learning about guns, they are apt to want to look at a gun, and sometimes even required to be looking at training guns, their own guns, etc... depending on the situation.

I'd like to see you teach a class to a bunch of people who barely know how a gun works, or even how to hold it or load it properly... and they all have guns and live ammo they are playing with, and think its ok, because its their right. Do you think its wrong also in a class on the range, when someone is downrange they require all guns to remain holstered, or they kick you out? People have RKBA, they aren't stupid enough to actually shoot down range when someone is down there right... why require them to stay holstered?

My whole point is.. there are special considerations to gun safety that have to be taken into consideration during gun training processes. I also noted his idea of disarming everyone, in the class or not, may be over the top, depending on the situation and area.
 

The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
Every class I have attended and every class I have taught, begins with verifying that there is NO live ammunition on the classroom and, if the student brought in their own firearm, that the firearm was cleared. This is not only an NRA dictate, it just makes common sense. Students have varying degrees of experience -- that's why they are in the classroom, to improve -- and it is up to the instructor to verify that the classroom is safe.

I was in a Defensive Pistol class not long ago, where all of the students brought in their own firearm. The instructor insured that there was no live ammo in the room and that all of the pistols were cleared before he started class. Even so, one of the students was dismissed because she seemingly could not keep from sweeping other students while handling her firearm. Rule 1.

The last thing we need is adverse publicity about a student or instructor in a classroom setting being injured by careless handling of a loaded firearm.

Nothing about what you have said has any bearing on this instance.

TBG
 

JamesCanby

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Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
Nothing about what you have said has any bearing on this instance.

TBG

The father in this situation wanted to be in the classroom with a loaded firearm. Whether he was a student or just being there to assist his son, the rule applies. No ammunition in the classroom.

While I agree that the Instructor was being heavy-handed in his approach (You can't come in because *I* didn't train you), if he had just followed the primary safety rules of no ammunition and all firearms cleared before class starts, would you have had a problem?
 
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The Big Guy

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Waco, TX
The father in this situation wanted to be in the classroom with a loaded firearm. Whether he was a student or just being there to assist his son, the rule applies. No ammunition in the classroom.

While I agree that the Instructor was being heavy-handed in his approach (You can't come in because *I* didn't train you), if he had just followed the primary safety rules of no ammunition and all firearms cleared before class starts, would you have had a problem?

Again he said he didn't allow. Nowhere do the club rules prohibit it. It was not a no loaded firearm, but a no sidearm, period.
No student has a firearm in class as all firearms and ammunition are provided by the club.

I was an observer/father/member. So, in answer to your question, yes, I have a problem with that. If we who espouse the RKBA think that most firearms owners are idiots, then we lose. We are losing. Go figure.

TBG
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
The father in this situation wanted to be in the classroom with a loaded firearm. Whether he was a student or just being there to assist his son, the rule applies. No ammunition in the classroom.

While I agree that the Instructor was being heavy-handed in his approach (You can't come in because *I* didn't train you), if he had just followed the primary safety rules of no ammunition and all firearms cleared before class starts, would you have had a problem?

Please explain to this ignorant one just how "no ammunition and all firearms cleared before class starts" is a primary safety rule.

I would think that "Keep your booger finger off the bang switch" and "Do not finger-[expletive deleted] your gun" would be more in the area of primary safety rules.

Have you ever been on a "hot" range? What, if any, problems did you witness there? And if you are a proponent of "cold" ranges, please explain just how students are to gain any experience in moving about and doing all sorts of other thing while paying no heed to that loaded, lethal, death-ray on their hips as opposed to being indoctrinated and inculcated with the notion that guns are so inherently dangerous that you should never have a loaded one near you unless you are at the firing line of a square range?

Aren't we saying that we carry for self defense? How does one learn to carry for self defense and not finger-[expletive deleted] and otherwise mess with the gun unless they practice doing that in the classroom? Or are you in favor of sending them out into the world fully trained in the mechanics of shooting at paper targets but totally inexperienced in walking around with a gun on their hip and no paranoia about "what might happen" by merely walking around with that implement of death and destruction on their hip?

stay safe.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
I understand where the guy is coming from. Like others have said, getting some yahoo in there that thinks he knows better but doesn't, and unholsters his carry weapon creating a liability hazard for everyone is a recipe for disaster.

But I think there's a better solution though: Let the parents bring in their carry gun, but stipulate that it stays holstered for the duration of the class just like it would anywhere else. And that if it does come unholstered without expressed prior permission from the instructor, the offender will be immediately ejected from the class.

Simple as that.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA

What?


Do you not see a difference in the likelihood of handling firearms while in a course of instruction on handling firearms, and not partaking in that course of instruction?

That is kind of like expecting a person in a school class to not be opening a book to read from when the instructor is going over information from the book.




Specifically for NRA instruction, classroom instruction IS required to be without ammunition, as others have indicated. The instructor you mentioned appears to have gone well beyond that.


Once again note the specific about it being in a classroom where it is very likely that students, some of whom may have NEVER touched a firearm before, are going to be learning safe firearm handling. Given that, I understand the requirement. Before/after class, or not part of the class, let them carry. IN the classroom, it is the instructor's rules. Assuming he was an NRA instructor, the requirement IS to have no live ammunition in the classroom with the firearms, as I recall it.
 
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The Big Guy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Waco, TX
I understand where the guy is coming from. Like others have said, getting some yahoo in there that thinks he knows better but doesn't, and unholsters his carry weapon creating a liability hazard for everyone is a recipe for disaster.

But I think there's a better solution though: Let the parents bring in their carry gun, but stipulate that it stays holstered for the duration of the class just like it would anywhere else. And that if it does come unholstered without expressed prior permission from the instructor, the offender will be immediately ejected from the class.

Simple as that.

Seems simple doesn't it?

TBG
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
Please explain to this ignorant one just how "no ammunition and all firearms cleared before class starts" is a primary safety rule.

I would think that "Keep your booger finger off the bang switch" and "Do not finger-[expletive deleted] your gun" would be more in the area of primary safety rules.

Have you ever been on a "hot" range? What, if any, problems did you witness there? And if you are a proponent of "cold" ranges, please explain just how students are to gain any experience in moving about and doing all sorts of other thing while paying no heed to that loaded, lethal, death-ray on their hips as opposed to being indoctrinated and inculcated with the notion that guns are so inherently dangerous that you should never have a loaded one near you unless you are at the firing line of a square range?

Aren't we saying that we carry for self defense? How does one learn to carry for self defense and not finger-[expletive deleted] and otherwise mess with the gun unless they practice doing that in the classroom? Or are you in favor of sending them out into the world fully trained in the mechanics of shooting at paper targets but totally inexperienced in walking around with a gun on their hip and no paranoia about "what might happen" by merely walking around with that implement of death and destruction on their hip?

stay safe.

Skid, all the classes I have taken or taught start with the classroom portion, in which no ammunition is allowed and all firearms are cleared. In that way both the instructor's firearms and any brought in by the students are considered safe, but also handled as if they are loaded, e.g., keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction means no sweeping of the instructor or students. When we move to the range portion, where what we learned or taught and practiced in the classroom becomes a "live" exercise with live ammunition and close supervision by the instructor and RSOs.

Please keep in mind that most of the classes we teach are Basic classes and the students are mostly new to firearms. We are teaching the basics, adhering to the three primary rules of firearm safety, augmented by the additional rules that follow on: Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, Keep the firearm unloaded until ready to use, Know what's beyond your target, etc. Students in my classes get to handle and display understanding of handling firearms including stance, grip, trigger control, breath control, sight alignment and sight picture, and once they have been exposed to the fundamentals, we go onto the range where they practice what they have learned in the classroom. Many, if not most, students are handling firearms for the first time.

Even in advanced classes such as Defensive Pistol, the same classroom rules apply: no ammo, cleared firearms. What differs, since the students are more advanced shooters, are the practical drills on the firing line: timed exercises, drawing from concealment, tap/rack/assess drills, handling misfires/malfunctions using a mix of live/dummy ammunition, tactical reloads, moving while shooting, shooting from cover/concealment, etc.

Yes, I have shot on an outdoor "hot" range, and I have seen people break the red line trying to recover something that has fallen from the bench. Most of the outdoor ranges where I shoot have "Cold range" periodically to allow shooters to examine their targets or to post new ones.

Of course we carry for self-defense. The skills you talk about in your last paragraph are best taught and practiced in advanced classes and in competitions such as IDPA.

Don't you want your fellow shooters to have a good understanding of the procedures and mechanics of the firearm they are going to be carrying before they begin to carry or attempt advanced courses? Comfort and familiarity with firearms is achieved in a variety of settings -- classroom and range -- and over time.

As far as becoming acclimated to OC or CC a loaded firearm, that can only be accomplished by actual experience. How many times have we read on here how paranoid the new carrier can be, thinking that everyone is staring at him/her? It's not until they have the experience of actually carrying openly and often, that they begin to become comfortable doing so, but with heightened situational awareness.

We both want the same thing, Skid: people who understand and appreciate the responsibilities and tactics of carrying firearms.
 
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mbogo470

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
86
Location
Nevada
TBG,

I agree with you.

"Paul" should not have challenged your right to carry your gun while you were accompanying your son to his training class.

He should have asked you to not handle your firearm while in the training area, and I am sure you would have gladly concurred.

BRPC needs to be reminded that it is comprised of members, not vendors, and that the vendors must respect the rights of its members.

mbogo



Had an interesting experience this morning. I decided to take my 14 yr old son to the Boulder Rifle and Pistol Club for their junior program. The goal being to teach youngsters safety, shooting, and how to care for your firearms. No fee. All firearms and ammo provided.

When I arrived there I pulled up in front of the trailer where the class is held and as I was getting out of my car, the instructor who later identified himself as "Paul", told me that "HE" did not allow any handguns but his. I said that I thought this was a gun club. He said it is. I told him I thought it should be all about the RKBA and freedom. He said he strongly believes in that. I said, "What you just said indicates that you don't." He told me that he didn't train me, he doesn't know what my abilities are. I told him that I didn't know him or know what his abilities are. He answered, "no you don't." The conversation went on a bit longer but the bottom line is I told my son, in front of Paul, that I would not let him be instructed by someone with his lack of regard for our freedoms, that I was afraid of what he would be taught.

People like Paul are why we have lost so much ground regarding our freedoms in this country. He has a very elitist attitude in that he believes in the right to bear arms, but only if he approves of you. If you are not one of his crowd those rights do not extend to you. He puts qualifiers on the Constitutions of the U.S. and NV. He is a prime example of the book Animal Farm. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Guess that makes Paul one of the pigs. (If you have never read Animal Farm, you should."

It's bad enough that we have to fight with the anti crowd, but it is just plain insane that we have to fight those who are supposed to be on our side. I will be writing to the club to see if they are standing behind him or not. At that time I will make a decision on whether to continue my long standing membership.

TBG
 

Vegassteve

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Apr 15, 2008
Messages
1,763
Location
Las Vegas NV, ,
We have at least one instructor here MAC702, who has no issue with his students being armed in class. Not sure why all these out of state people feel the need to participate in this thread. They are just amplifying the noise in the thread.
 

wrightme

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Oct 19, 2008
Messages
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Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
We have at least one instructor here MAC702, who has no issue with his students being armed in class. Not sure why all these out of state people feel the need to participate in this thread. They are just amplifying the noise in the thread.

Where they reside does not invalidate their comments.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
We have at least one instructor here MAC702, who has no issue with his students being armed in class. Not sure why all these out of state people feel the need to participate in this thread. They are just amplifying the noise in the thread.

Where they reside does not invalidate their comments.
True, but knowing which end of the stick to hold helps.
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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12,452
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White Oak Plantation
I'm trying to wrap my tiny brain around the notion that the "instructor" is worried about TBG twirling his pistola around his finger, cuz he is bored, while his wee one is getting some pistola training. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer sometimes, but that "instructor" is a bloody nitwit if that is his "expectation" regarding paying customers TBG, especially the bored ones twirling their pistola around on their finger.

Find another "instructor" that has gots him some uncommonly common sense.
 

Maverick9

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Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
I understand where the guy is coming from. Like others have said, getting some yahoo in there that thinks he knows better but doesn't, and unholsters his carry weapon creating a liability hazard for everyone is a recipe for disaster.

But I think there's a better solution though: Let the parents bring in their carry gun, but stipulate that it stays holstered for the duration of the class just like it would anywhere else. And that if it does come unholstered without expressed prior permission from the instructor, the offender will be immediately ejected from the class.

Simple as that.

OMG, be prepared to be shouted down and told you have no right to your opinion by TBG.

Yes, in a firearms class a rule of 'no ammo in class' is a good one. Clear any carried firearms and be seated, observers included. Or put them in a case, cleared, but still accessible if a BG tries to burst in.

Remember we don't know the instructor's routine. He knows that newbies can do things, like sweep the class or fiddle with gun parts, so he pre-empts it. Heavy-handed, sure. It would have been relatively easy to instantly 'pre-vet' and assess the observers and OK them. But you get an observer who is instantly almost 'combative' and that raises red flags also.
 

Bernymac

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
415
Location
Las Vegas
OMG, be prepared to be shouted down and told you have no right to your opinion by TBG.

Yes, in a firearms class a rule of 'no ammo in class' is a good one. Clear any carried firearms and be seated, observers included. Or put them in a case, cleared, but still accessible if a BG tries to burst in.

Remember we don't know the instructor's routine. He knows that newbies can do things, like sweep the class or fiddle with gun parts, so he pre-empts it. Heavy-handed, sure. It would have been relatively easy to instantly 'pre-vet' and assess the observers and OK them. But you get an observer who is instantly almost 'combative' and that raises red flags also.

Heavy handed pre-emptive-ness for the sake of safety? Awesome. I wonder where we have heard that mentality before? Red flags due to being "almost combative"? Didn't they pass this law in California because they "fear" that the red flags may cause an individual to do some sort of shooting spree? :uhoh::rolleyes::uhoh::rolleyes::eek::shocker:

Let's just ban guns in classrooms altogether, just to be safe, because we don't know what others are thinking. Maybe do a background check on the attendees just to be sure they are all legally allowed to be there. How about a safety class before attending a gun safety class? Yeah, that's it...that'll learn these bastiches!
 
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garand_guy

Regular Member
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Feb 15, 2014
Messages
493
Location
Nevada
OMG, be prepared to be shouted down and told you have no right to your opinion by TBG.

Way to go ad-hominem there.

Everybody has different opinions. Here in Nevada, the mindset seems to be locked and loaded all the time and most arguments to the contrary are rather hollow.

The only justification I could see for this behavior is with an active class participant, with handgun instruction, and active handgun handling. This was a kids thing, and a member's range, not some free CCW class on the Strip.
 
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