Federal Gun Free School Zones Act

I wrote this in response to a question in the Nevada section. However, I think it is important that it be posted to a national audience. It relates to Title 18 USC 922(q) The Federal Gun Free School Zones Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fr...es_Act_of_1990




Fact: If you are carrying or transporting a firearm within 1000 feet of any school in a state that has not physically issued you a permit, you are committing a crime punished like a felony, unless the firearm is unloaded and in a locked case.

Fact: The law doesn't give as much leeway for "ignorance" as many think. The law doesn't require that you KNEW you were within 1000 feet of a school, only that a reasonable person in your situation should have known. How long have you lived in the area? Do you have school age children? How long has that school been there, maybe even when you were a kid? Surely you've noticed the flashing school speed limit signs at some point during your travels?

Fact: If you are convicted, you will never legally touch a gun again, for the rest of your life.

Fact: Many states list "places otherwise prohibited by federal law" as a prohibited place under state law. In these states, you would be committing an additional state offense.

Fact: The revised version of the law has been upheld several times. If SCOTUS were to void the current GFSZA law based on its lack of connection to interstate commerce, they would also have to void nearly every other federal criminal statute which relies on a nexus of interstate commerce (all of them!). This would void nearly all of the federal government's police power that it has assumed over the last 110 years. Not going to happen. If you are not familiar with our current system of federal legislation, read the Wickard v. Filburn court case. It was how this "interstate commerce" business got started. Gonzales v Raich is also a good commerce clause case to read. The federal law which prohibits people convicted of crimes punishable by more than one year from possessing firearms, 922(g), is enforced ALL THE TIME. It relies on the exact same "nexus of commerce" that GFSZA does. Is anyone going to say that it isn't enforceable?

Fact: Peace officers in many states have the authority to make arrests for violations of federal law. Read your state statutes that relate to peace officers, do they have the authority to arrest for federal violations? They do in my state.

Fact: The government is very aware of this law and its effects, read the ATF letter that is included on the Wikipedia page you linked to.


So, if you want to be a law abiding gun owner, don't carry your gun anywhere that would violate GFSZA. Otherwise, every unprosecuted violation committed will be another case of "not enforcing the laws on the books" that the NRA and many "law abiding gun owners" crusade for.

Finally, don't misinterpret my post. I think Fed GFSZA is a terrible law, and it needs to be addressed legislatively. However, that isn't going to happen until all of these "law abiding gun owners" quit hiding from the truth and pretending this law doesn't exist, or that it can't be enforced. So many people refuse to spend thirty minutes to write their congressional representatives about this, and instead choose to trust that the government is benevolent enough to not prosecute them for multiple violations of the law.

Warrantless checkpoints are okay when the police are looking for drunks. They are okay when the police are checking for immigration status. Don't think for a minute that these checkpoints wont continue to be okay when they are setup in front of schools and "law abiding gun owners" are being removed from their vehicles at gun point to face federal charges for GFSZA violations.

Many of you know that President HW Bush banned the import of "assault weapons" in 1990 and President Obama continues to do so today. Does anyone know where the authority to ban the importation of firearms not "suitable to sporting purposes" came from? Answer: The Gun Control Act of 1968!!!!!!! This little known, unenforced clause regarding "sporting purposes" sat on the books for decades before it was enforced, but it is certainly enforced today. I promise, GFSZA has not been forgotten, and will have substantial legal consequences in the future.

Eagle2009 said:

I wrote this in response to a question in the Nevada section. However, I think it is important that it be posted to a national audience. It relates to Title 18 USC 922(q) The Federal Gun Free School Zones Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

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What specifically are you using as support for your 'statements' of 'fact?'

Wikipedia articles are not useful as a source citation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/924

(4) Whoever violates section 922 (q) shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the term of imprisonment imposed under this paragraph shall not run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment imposed under any other provision of law. Except for the authorization of a term of imprisonment of not more than 5 years made in this paragraph, for the purpose of any other law a violation of section 922 (q) shall be deemed to be a misdemeanor.

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wrightme said:

What specifically are you using as support for your 'statements' of 'fact?'

Wikipedia articles are not useful as a source citation.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/924

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Read the ATF letter on the wikipedia page. Also, read the US court cases contained on the Wikipedia page, specifically United States v Dorsey. If you feel the PDFs of the court cases on wiki are somehow forged, I would be happy to link to them on a more credible website. The ATF letter is also available at www.ok2a.org/fedgfsza

Yes, you are correct that the law does SAY it's a misdemeanor, but most other laws dealing with felony convictions hinge on the possible term of imprisonment, not on the text of the law. A conviction bans you from firearms ownership as stated (with good legal references) in the ATF letter. For nearly every purpose, a conviction under Fed GFSZA has the same legal effects as any felony conviction. Upon conviction of Fed GFSZA, you will be treated as a felon in most areas of life. I'd be happy to edit the post and say "committing a crime punished like a felony" if you feel that would be more suitable.

Eagle2009 said:

Read the ATF letter on the wikipedia page. Also, read the US court cases contained on the Wikipedia page, specifically United States v Dorsey. If you feel the PDFs of the court cases on wiki are somehow forged, I would be happy to link to them on a more credible website.

Yes, you are correct that the law does SAY it's a misdemeanor, but most other laws dealing with felony convictions hinge on the possible term of imprisonment, not on the text of the law. A conviction bans you from firearms ownership as stated (with good legal references) in the ATF letter. For nearly every purpose, a conviction under Fed GFSZA has the same legal effects as any felony conviction. Upon conviction of Fed GFSZA, you will be treated as a felon in most areas of life.

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922 does prohibit for the >5 year possible sentence. It is not analogous to a felony conviction wrt rkba. The letter to the ok club outlined the references for relief, which is NOT as difficult as felony relief for rkba, as I understand it.

And no, I disagree with your last statement. It is treated similar to a felony for rkba. I have as yet not see where it is treated similar to a felony 'in most areas of life.' Given that it is NOT a felony, the ONLY right lost, appears to be the rkba.

wrightme said:

922 does prohibit for the >5 year possible sentence. It is not analogous to a felony conviction wrt rkba. The letter to the ok club outlined the references for relief, which is NOT as difficult as felony relief for rkba, as I understand it.

And no, I disagree with your last statement. It is treated similar to a felony for rkba. I have as yet not see where it is treated similar to a felony 'in most areas of life.' Given that it is NOT a felony, the ONLY right lost, appears to be the rkba.

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I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph, but a conviction is a lifetime prohibition on gun ownership, short of a presidential pardon. If you read 922(g) the federal law relating to "felons" possessing firearms, the law does not actually say "felony" but is instead triggered upon conviction of a crime punishable by more than one year or punishable by more than two years for specific white collar crimes. If you possess a gun after GFSZA conviction, there is no legal distinction at the federal level between you and someone who was convicted of murder, robbery, etc.

This is not a personal quip against you, but every time I post anything about this, people will argue with me until we are both blue in the face. I wish everyone would use the effort they delegate to arguing with me to instead write Congress about this. Yes, there may be certain laws in certain states that differentiate between a labeled "felony" and a labeled "misdemeanor" but many many laws make no distinction and are triggered simply by the possible term of imprisonment. The lifetime loss of gun rights does occur after GFSZA conviction, and would be horribly hurtful to anyone that visits this forum.

Eagle2009 said:

I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph, but a conviction is a lifetime prohibition on gun ownership, short of a presidential pardon. If you read 922(g) the federal law relating to "felons" possessing firearms, the law does not actually say "felony" but is instead triggered upon conviction of a crime punishable by more than one year or punishable by more than two years for specific white collar crimes. If you possess a gun after GFSZA conviction, there is no legal distinction at the federal level between you and someone who was convicted of murder, robbery, etc.

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...
And, I am not sure where you are coming up with 'short of a presidential pardon.' That is more in line with getting relief for a felony conviction.

Eagle2009 said:

This is not a personal quip against you, but every time I post anything about this, people will argue with me until we are both blue in the face. I wish everyone would use the effort they delegate to arguing with me to instead write Congress about this. Yes, there may be certain laws in certain states that differentiate between a labeled "felony" and a labeled "misdemeanor" but many many laws make no distinction and are triggered simply by the possible term of imprisonment. The lifetime loss of gun rights does occur after GFSZA conviction, and would be horribly hurtful to anyone that visits this forum.

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If you post anything about this, the best starting point is with the actual legal cites, the verbiage of the actual statutes, and the actual legal ramifications. Each time you mischaracterize it, you are the one who is presenting a false view of it to anyone who visits this forum.


I agree that the loss involved from a conviction for the Federal GFSZ is drastic. Make it accurate at least.

wrightme said:

Yes, there is a legal distinction. Such person is not considered a felon.
And, I am not sure where you are coming up with 'short of a presidential pardon.'

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The possibility of a presidential pardon being the sole recourse to regain gun rights after GFSZA conviction is contained in the ATF letter written to the Oklahoma Second Amendment Association.

I never said there is no legal distinction. I agree with you that there is a distinction in some cases. Now agree with me that there is no distinction in other cases, specifically 922(g)

Eagle2009 said:

I wrote this in response to a question in the Nevada section. However, I think it is important that it be posted to a national audience. It relates to Title 18 USC 922(q) The Federal Gun Free School Zones Act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fr...es_Act_of_1990




Fact: If you are carrying a loaded firearm within 1000 feet of any school in a state that has not physically issued you a permit, you are committing a felony.

Fact: The law doesn't give as much leeway for "ignorance" as many think. The law doesn't require that you KNEW you were within 1000 feet of a school, only that a reasonable person in your situation should have known. How long have you lived in the area? Do you have school age children? How long has that school been there, maybe even when you were a kid? Surely you've noticed the flashing school speed limit signs at some point during your travels?

Fact: If you are convicted, you will never legally touch a gun again, for the rest of your life.

Fact: Many states list "places otherwise prohibited by federal law" as a prohibited place under state law. In these states, you would be committing an additional state offense.

Fact: The revised version of the law has been upheld several times. If SCOTUS were to void the current GFSZA law based on its lack of connection to interstate commerce, they would also have to void nearly every other federal criminal statute which relies on a nexus of interstate commerce (all of them!). This would void nearly all of the federal government's police power that it has assumed over the last 110 years. Not going to happen. If you are not familiar with our current system of federal legislation, read the Wickard v. Filburn court case. It was how this "interstate commerce" business got started. Gonzales v Raich is also a good commerce clause case to read. The federal law which prohibits felons from possessing firearms, 922(g), is enforced ALL THE TIME. It relies on the exact same "nexus of commerce" that GFSZA does. Is anyone going to say that it isn't enforceable?

Fact: Peace officers in many states have the authority to make arrests for violations of federal law. Read your state statutes that relate to peace officers, do they have the authority to arrest for federal violations? They do in my state.

Fact: The government is very aware of this law and its effects, read the ATF letter that is included on the Wikipedia page you linked to.


So, if you want to be a law abiding gun owner, don't carry your gun anywhere that would violate GFSZA. Otherwise, every unprosecuted violation committed will be another case of "not enforcing the laws on the books" that the NRA and many "law abiding gun owners" crusade for.

Finally, don't misinterpret my post. I think Fed GFSZA is a terrible law, and it needs to be addressed legislatively. However, that isn't going to happen until all of these "law abiding gun owners" quit hiding from the truth and pretending this law doesn't exist, or that it can't be enforced. So many people refuse to spend thirty minutes to write their congressional representatives about this, and instead choose to trust that the government is benevolent enough to not prosecute them for multiple felony violations of the law.

Warrantless checkpoints are okay when the police are looking for drunks. They are okay when the police are checking for immigration status. Don't think for a minute that these checkpoints wont continue to be okay when they are setup in front of schools and "law abiding gun owners" are being removed from their vehicles at gun point to face federal felony charges for GFSZA violations.

Many of you know that President HW Bush banned the import of "assault weapons" in 1990 and President Obama continues to do so today. Does anyone know where the authority to ban the importation of firearms not "suitable to sporting purposes" came from? Answer: The Gun Control Act of 1968!!!!!!! This little known, unenforced clause regarding "sporting purposes" sat on the books for decades before it was enforced, but it is certainly enforced today. I promise, GFSZA has not been forgotten, and will have substantial legal consequences in the future.

Click to expand...

I would correct one thing the firearm does not have to be loaded just in your possession and not secured in a locked container. Unloaded anywhere but in a locked container is the same violation as loaded.

This is why I have Concealed permits in 7 states even Arizona where a permit is not required. At some point I fully expect this law to be enforced at a level that will cause problems for a lot of gun owners.

This is also a problem if national reciprocity for Concealed licenses ever becomes law.

Eagle2009 said:

The possibility of a presidential pardon being the sole recourse to regain gun rights after GFSZA conviction is contained in the ATF letter written to the Oklahoma Second Amendment Association.

I never said there is no legal distinction. I agree with you that there is a distinction in some cases. Now agree with me that there is no distinction in other cases, specifically 922(g)

Click to expand...

I reread that bit, you did say 'no legal distinction.' But, I missed the portion that you referred specifically to 'possession of a firearm' after a GFSZA conviction.

But, I am not sure that the letter to the OK club included all the avenues available:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/925

(c) A person who is prohibited from possessing, shipping, transporting, or receiving firearms or ammunition may make application to the Attorney General for relief from the disabilities imposed by Federal laws with respect to the acquisition, receipt, transfer, shipment, transportation, or possession of firearms, and the Attorney General may grant such relief if it is established to his satisfaction that the circumstances regarding the disability, and the applicant’s record and reputation, are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety and that the granting of the relief would not be contrary to the public interest. Any person whose application for relief from disabilities is denied by the Attorney General may file a petition with the United States district court for the district in which he resides for a judicial review of such denial. The court may in its discretion admit additional evidence where failure to do so would result in a miscarriage of justice. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector conducting operations under this chapter, who makes application for relief from the disabilities incurred under this chapter, shall not be barred by such disability from further operations under his license pending final action on an application for relief filed pursuant to this section. Whenever the Attorney General grants relief to any person pursuant to this section he shall promptly publish in the Federal Register notice of such action, together with the reasons therefor.

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To me, this reads as the progression of actions that can be explored well before any request for Presidential Pardon.

Jeff Hayes said:

I would correct one thing the firearm does not have to be loaded just in your possession and not secured in a locked container. Unloaded anywhere but in a locked container is the same violation as loaded.

This is why I have Concealed permits in 7 states even Arizona where a permit is not required. At some point I fully expect this law to be enforced at a level that will cause problems for a lot of gun owners.

Click to expand...

As soon as Hillary appoints a justice to change the scope of SCOTUS. Then it will become open season. Hillary unless she is caught in huge scandal will be president for 8 years that makes 10 years from now. The elderly justices cannot live forever.

To address wrightme's concerns, I have edited the original post to address the distinction between certain terms. However, I think we can all agree that due to the five year prison term and permanent loss of gun rights, this crime is significantly more serious than any traditional "misdemeanor" that someone might find in a municipal traffic code. I still stand by my original assertion that a conviction under this will trigger all criminal disabilities in any state or federal law which occur based on conviction of a crime punishable by more than one year.

WalkingWolf said:

As soon as Hillary appoints a justice to change the scope of SCOTUS. Then it will become open season. Hillary unless she is caught in huge scandal will be president for 8 years that makes 10 years from now. The elderly justices cannot live forever.

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I am not yet convinced that Hillary is going to win if she runs, we will see in 2016.

Jeff Hayes said:

I am not yet convinced that Hillary is going to win if she runs...

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Really? With polls pitting her 10 points higher than Romney? 15 points higher than anyone else?

What the HELL is going to convince you, Jeff Hayes, that our world is deep in **** unless all conservatives get off their ASS and act NOW.

Uh... DUH!!!

Pull your head out of your ass. NOW.

- VETERAN

I'd be more worried about this if you could show where anyone has been arrested by a local police agency and convicted of violating the GFSZA as a primary offense, not as an add-on offense. Or where GFSZA checkpoints have been set up anywhere in the country inside a school's 1,000' perimeter.

since9 said:

Really? With polls pitting her 10 points higher than Romney? 15 points higher than anyone else?

What the HELL is going to convince you, Jeff Hayes, that our world is deep in **** unless all conservatives get off their ASS and act NOW.

Uh... DUH!!!

Pull your head out of your ass. NOW.

- VETERAN

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The only way to stop her is to attack Obama on his violations of the constitution, AND to the people who suffered most from his violations. The GOP must reach to these voters and inform/educate them on Obama's lack of action on incidents of police misconduct. All Obama has done is lip service, when black young men and teens being killed is far more important than anything in the middle east. It is over due time for a war on corruption.

WalkingWolf said:

As soon as Hillary appoints a justice to change the scope of SCOTUS. Then it will become open season. Hillary unless she is caught in huge scandal will be president for 8 years that makes 10 years from now. The elderly justices cannot live forever.

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Hey real quick can someone tell me who signed this act into law in the first place?

I'm doing a report for school.

Action Now

WalkingWolf said:

The only way to stop her is to attack Obama on his violations of the constitution, AND to the people who suffered most from his violations. The GOP must reach to these voters and inform/educate them on Obama's lack of action on incidents of police misconduct. All Obama has done is lip service, when black young men and teens being killed is far more important than anything in the middle east. It is over due time for a war on corruption.

Click to expand...

Hell yeah; we have all got to unite and take action!

since9 said:

Really? With polls pitting her 10 points higher than Romney? 15 points higher than anyone else?

What the HELL is going to convince you, Jeff Hayes, that our world is deep in **** unless all conservatives get off their ASS and act NOW.

Uh... DUH!!!

Pull your head out of your ass. NOW.

- VETERAN

Click to expand...

Excuse me but I am not convinced she can win because I think the Republican candidate will win in 2016 because of obama's and the Democrat's actions of the last 6 years, alomst 8 by that point.

Now having said that I do not address others in the manner you just addressed me nor will I tolerate being addressed by others in that manner. If you are going to continue please let me know now so I can block your posts. Good day.

Spam reported.

JamesCanby said:

I'd be more worried about this if you could show where anyone has been arrested by a local police agency and convicted of violating the GFSZA as a primary offense, not as an add-on offense. Or where GFSZA checkpoints have been set up anywhere in the country inside a school's 1,000' perimeter.

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Discussions with local law enforcement reveal they occasionally arrest someone, usually a high-school student, for bringing a weapon on campus, often even just in their vehicle. I asked if that ever involved a firearm, and was told "rarely," and that they've had more issues with adults bringing a firearm on school grounds even though the firearm remained inside their vehicle. I mentioned the GFSZA allowance for CCP holders and one of the five LEOs seated at the table almost foamed at the mouth claiming it was no excuse, state law says blah-blah, etc. The others more or less rolled their eyes, which indicated their better understanding of the issue, so I just let it slide.

The discussion did reveal that any weapons arrest on school grounds made by local LEOs would be handled locally, the only exception being if the suspect were also guilty of additional federal charges, at which point local law enforcement would inform the feds, and it would be up to the feds to charge the suspect, if warranted.

The drift I was getting is that elevating issues to the federal level were quite rare.