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Thread: Fight for the right to carry while hunting...NO EXCEPTION!

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Fight for the right to carry while hunting...NO EXCEPTION!

    Well, Peter Nap made the original thread about this seemingly pointless restriction on OCing during deer bow season. I understand that bow season exists as a more primitive form of deer hunting, and that the VABGIF would like to keep things "fair" and keep people from "cheating" by being able to use a firearm to kill a deer even during bow season.

    I'd like to expand on this by creating some dialogue as to what can possibly be done to CHANGE the current law(s) so that OCing a sidearm is always acceptable. Now, I believe that there could be a way to fight for this right while also moving closer to Constitutional Carry here in VA. For anyone not aware or for out-of-staters reading this, here's my post from the other thread with cites:

    It's a complete baloney OC pistol and firearms prohibition while in the woods hunting during white tailed deer bow season.

    18.2-308 says if you have a CHP you can carry while hunting. That's the way I interpret it anyway.

    "6. Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is carrying a valid concealed handgun permit; "

    Looks like the VABGIF agrees.

    "It is unlawful to have a firearm in possession except that a muzzleloading firearm, as defined in the muzzleloader deer seasons section, may also be in possession when and where there is an overlap with a muzzleloading deer season where deer hunting with a rifle or muzzleloading firearm is permitted. **(See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders)." - http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...tions/deer.asp

    **"Valid Concealed Handgun Permit Holders May:

    Nothing in any Department regulation shall prohibit the possession and transport of a concealed handgun when the individual possesses a valid concealed weapon permit as defined in the Code of Virginia. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property. Furthermore, the possession of a concealed handgun permit does not authorize the use of the concealed handgun for hunting." - http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting....asp#legal-use

    Thoughts? This may very well be the first pinpointed law that I could personally see myself investing time and money to have changed, to maybe "knock down the first domino."
    Last edited by The Truth; 10-06-2014 at 03:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    There is only one thing that can be done that will cause the change you want.

    Get a member of the General Assembly to sponsor a bill that repeals all the current restrictions. Then get out and lobby for passage of the bill.

    Did anybody think there was some other magic bean that might do anything?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    There is only one thing that can be done that will cause the change you want.

    Get a member of the General Assembly to sponsor a bill that repeals all the current restrictions. Then get out and lobby for passage of the bill.

    Did anybody think there was some other magic bean that might do anything?

    stay safe.
    Nah, no magic bean theory here, just a bureaucratic noob trying to get my foot in the door to real activism and lobbying. This "stipulation" seems like it could be easy prey and just a tiny step forward for OC.

    Do you know of any current activism towards Constitutional Carry in the Commonwealth? Not saying that this is necessarily relevant, but like I said, I'm thinking more along the lines of destroying the foundation so that the "house" falls a little easier.

    Go easy on me. Haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Nah, no magic bean theory here, just a bureaucratic noob trying to get my foot in the door to real activism and lobbying. This "stipulation" seems like it could be easy prey and just a tiny step forward for OC.

    Do you know of any current activism towards Constitutional Carry in the Commonwealth? Not saying that this is necessarily relevant, but like I said, I'm thinking more along the lines of destroying the foundation so that the "house" falls a little easier.

    Go easy on me. Haha.
    There is no straight line simple approach. State agencies, of which DGIF is one, are not subject to preemption. They propagate their rules through department "regulations" and the process is completely different.

    The Holy Grail/Constitutional Carry is not going to make any progress while Bloomberg's puppet is in the governor's mansion - no point in wasting political clout.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is no straight line simple approach. State agencies, of which DGIF is one, are not subject to preemption. They propagate their rules through department "regulations" and the process is completely different.

    The Holy Grail/Constitutional Carry is not going to make any progress while Bloomberg's puppet is in the governor's mansion - no point in wasting political clout.
    Most state regulations need to be reviewed by the legislature before it becomes a regulation [the process should be in your state statues] ... one can ask for a declaratory ruling by the agency if one wishes..especially if the process by which a regulation is supposed to be made was not followed.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Most state regulations need to be reviewed by the legislature before it becomes a regulation [the process should be in your state statues] ... one can ask for a declaratory ruling by the agency if one wishes..especially if the process by which a regulation is supposed to be made was not followed.
    Virginia agency regulations are not reviewed by the General Assembly. The executive branch has more hands on authority than the legislative arm. The process is found in the Virginia Administrative Code.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+men+SRR

    Basicly there are 3 steps: "A notice of Intended Regulatory Action, a proposed regulation, and a final regulation. Each step allows for executive branch review and public comment. The typical regulation takes about 18-24 months to go through the regulatory process."
    http://dls.virginia.gov/pubs/RegProcess.pdf
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Virginia agency regulations are not reviewed by the General Assembly. The executive branch has more hands on authority than the legislative arm. The process is found in the Virginia Administrative Code.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+men+SRR

    Basicly there are 3 steps: "A notice of Intended Regulatory Action, a proposed regulation, and a final regulation. Each step allows for executive branch review and public comment. The typical regulation takes about 18-24 months to go through the regulatory process."
    http://dls.virginia.gov/pubs/RegProcess.pdf
    No, I think McBeth is right. He needs to come down here and set those people in the GA straight.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No, I think McBeth is right. He needs to come down here and set those people in the GA straight.
    At least he is consistent and keeps poking his same eye. Guess that makes him a nominal expert, though he would seem to lack depth perception. How could that be?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    "Any person actually engaged in lawful hunting, as authorized by the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries, under inclement weather conditions necessitating temporary protection of his firearm from those conditions, provided that possession of a handgun while engaged in lawful hunting shall not be construed as hunting with a handgun if the person hunting is *carrying a concealed handgun permit*;"

    I would change the wording of the law to read *in accordance with state law or local ordinance*.
    "It is unlawful to have a firearm in possession except that a muzzleloading firearm, as defined in the muzzleloader deer seasons section, may also be in possession when and where there is an overlap with a muzzleloading deer season where deer hunting with a rifle or muzzleloading firearm is permitted. (See exception for valid concealed handgun permit holders)."

    There should be an exception for any mode of carry with any sidearm.

    "Valid Concealed Handgun Permit Holders May:

    Nothing in any Department regulation shall prohibit the possession and transport of a concealed handgun when the individual possesses a valid concealed weapon permit as defined in the Code of Virginia. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property. Furthermore, the possession of a concealed handgun permit does not authorize the use of the concealed handgun for hunting."

    This is the section that needs some serious work. I'm just beginning this process, so there will be lots of fragmented thoughts presented. The goal would be to re-word or re-write any applicable laws or regulations regarding pistol carry while hunting during non-firearm season.

    I'm 100% serious about this and plan on devoting some time and effort towards this. Any help at all is welcomed. All arguments are welcome. The stronger the re-wording, the better, and IMO it is possible to insert certain wordings to accomodate situational Constitutional Carry which would hopefully lead to state-wide unconditional Constitutional Carry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    --snipped--The stronger the re-wording, the better, and IMO it is possible to insert certain wordings to accomodate situational Constitutional Carry which would hopefully lead to state-wide unconditional Constitutional Carry.
    The blush is still on the rose. Keep your thoughts pure
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This is also being discussed with members of the GA as I write this. Not a real solution but one of what Philip would call baby steps, which is the best we can hope for this year.

    It may be introduced and may not but it is in the works.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This is also being discussed with members of the GA as I write this. Not a real solution but one of what Philip would call baby steps, which is the best we can hope for this year.

    It may be introduced and may not but it is in the works.
    I would love to help in any way, even if it's just moral support. Just let me know and I'll be there. Who is Philip?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I would love to help in any way, even if it's just moral support. Just let me know and I'll be there. Who is Philip?
    The President of VCDL!

    I'll let you know if it goes anywhere.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-07-2014 at 10:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The President of VCDL!

    I'll let you know if it goes anywhere.
    Definitely do, please!
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    ...... Who is Philip?
    Love it, made me laugh, but not AT you Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    Love it, made me laugh, but not AT you Mason
    Who is Mason?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    I've been planning to go to their meetings in Richmond this month, to ask them to allow handgun open carry for self defense year round, in particular in the Wildlife Management Areas. I'm thinking it'll be good to go to the 15th and 16th meetings.

    I just want to be able to fish or picnic, etc, with the same rights to safety as the rest of VA.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/meetings/

    I've already submitted the suggestion that they bring their handgun policy inline with the state's laws. There was a period of open suggestions for the public, but it's closed now.

    It makes no logical sense that I can bring in a handgun cc, but not oc in VA.

    My understanding is that the VA DGIF can change this policy of their own accord, no fuss-no muss.

    Dunno if you've signed up with VCDL, but here's a thread since July of '14 on the effort:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2372...2533144900699/
    Last edited by ChristCrusader; 10-08-2014 at 07:44 AM.
    *I am not a lawyer. Nothing from me shall be construed as a magic cloak of legal advice. It's ultimately your tucas that's on the line. Keep examining the law anyway. The gov't, made up of people like us, is supposed to work for us, not against us. Let's find, correct, and avoid the wrongs before they're actively used against us, or we become innocently trapped by them. We're to be the masters. Let's vigilantly keep tabs on our servants who seek to rule us.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristCrusader View Post
    I've been planning to go to their meetings in Richmond this month, to ask them to allow handgun open carry for self defense year round, in particular in the Wildlife Management Areas. I'm thinking it'll be good to go to the 15th and 16th meetings.

    I just want to be able to fish or picnic, etc, with the same rights to safety as the rest of VA.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/meetings/

    I've already submitted the suggestion that they bring their handgun policy inline with the state's laws. There was a period of open suggestions for the public, but it's closed now.

    It makes no logical sense that I can bring in a handgun cc, but not oc in VA.

    My understanding is that the VA DGIF can change this policy of their own accord, no fuss-no muss.

    Dunno if you've signed up with VCDL, but here's a thread since July of '14 on the effort:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2372...2533144900699/
    DGIF can change the WMA and National Forest policy but legal weapons during ML and Bow seasons need to go through the General Assembly.

    I don't know if it was me you asked if I was in VCDL but I was for many years. Their refusal to support Sunday Hunting was the last straw and I am not now a member and won't be again until they decide to support ALL GUN OWNERS.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristCrusader View Post
    I've been planning to go to their meetings in Richmond this month, to ask them to allow handgun open carry for self defense year round, in particular in the Wildlife Management Areas. I'm thinking it'll be good to go to the 15th and 16th meetings.

    I just want to be able to fish or picnic, etc, with the same rights to safety as the rest of VA.

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/meetings/

    I've already submitted the suggestion that they bring their handgun policy inline with the state's laws. There was a period of open suggestions for the public, but it's closed now.

    It makes no logical sense that I can bring in a handgun cc, but not oc in VA.

    My understanding is that the VA DGIF can change this policy of their own accord, no fuss-no muss.

    Dunno if you've signed up with VCDL, but here's a thread since July of '14 on the effort:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/2372...2533144900699/
    Thanks for the post! I generally support VCDL, but like Peter Nap, I'm not a member and I feel they have a little bit of work to do before I decide to flaunt their brand and give them my money.

    The more I talk about this the more I realize I really need to find a place to hunt this year! No game land for me though...a private club is ideal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

  20. #20
    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    I agree with Mr Nap about the SUPPORTING all gun owners. Last year's renewal money went on an extra Christmas gift for my son, Logan, instead. This year's might go on a bottle of liquor, or I might use it for another extra Christmas gift for Logan, I haven't decided which yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    At least he is consistent and keeps poking his same eye. Guess that makes him a nominal expert, though he would seem to lack depth perception. How could that be?
    Finally, a recognized expert .... as I said, chk the state laws..."most" did not imply all or the state being queried. Grape gave a good summation it appears...now its up to someone interested to look and see if the procedure was followed.

    Why did not I? Good question.

    Because the premise of the thread is flawed IMO .. should be looking for OC to be not illegal anywhere/anytime..not just to address the silly hunting season issue.

    You're welcome.

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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Finally, a recognized expert .... as I said, chk the state laws..."most" did not imply all or the state being queried. Grape gave a good summation it appears...now its up to someone interested to look and see if the procedure was followed.

    Why did not I? Good question.

    Because the premise of the thread is flawed IMO .. should be looking for OC to be not illegal anywhere/anytime..not just to address the silly hunting season issue.

    You're welcome.
    Outside of normal no carry spots, bow hunting season and muzzle loader season ARE the only time we cannot legally OC. It is silly, right? Nice try on the "flawed thread title" idea though...
    Last edited by The Truth; 10-10-2014 at 03:30 AM. Reason: Accuracy and wit ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    I could be wrong, but outside of normal no carry spots, bow hunting season IS the only time we cannot legally OC.
    Muzzle Loader season.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Peter, gave you another.This might help as well:

    http://vcdl.org/chp
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member The Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Muzzle Loader season.
    Damn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Peter, gave you another.This might help as well:

    http://vcdl.org/chp
    I still haven't decided whether a CHP is for me or not. I suppose the Winter months may force me to, but as many times as I've talked about it, something in me will not allow myself to get one.
    Sic semper evello mortem tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stealthyeliminator
    So in actuality you have no evidence that anything wrong took place, you only believe that it could be spun to appear wrong. But it hasn't been. The truth has a funny way of coming out with persistence, even if it was spun negatively the truth would find its way because these people will not accept less.
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The truth causes some people so much pain they can only respond with impotent laughable insults. Life must be rough for those people.

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